Brexit at Glasto?

[Mr.Tease]

56 minutes ago, oneeye said:

I do like banksy's take on parliament, sort of sums it all up really...

I don't like the narrative that it's all mps fault- the general public have to take responsibility for their decisions and the consequences. They asked the mps to do something that wasn't possible (and which most mps campaigned against in the referendum) and then gave them a minority government to deliver it. 

[oneeye]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

I don't like the narrative that it's all mps fault- the general public have to take responsibility for their decisions and the consequences. They asked the mps to do something that wasn't possible (and which most mps campaigned against in the referendum) and then gave them a minority government to deliver it. 

But it was the mps that gave the general public a choice to start with; bed and lie in it comes to mind, what did they honestly expect? 

[Mr.Tease]

4 minutes ago, oneeye said:

But it was the mps that gave the general public a choice to start with; bed and lie in it comes to mind, what did they honestly expect? 

If someone gives me a choice of staying in my house or burning it down, how are they responsible if I choose to burn my house down? Sure, the referendum was a daft idea, but it was all Joe public from that point on. 

[oneeye]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

If someone gives me a choice of staying in my house or burning it down, how are they responsible if I choose to burn my house down? Sure, the referendum was a daft idea, but it was all Joe public from that point on. 

But, if you are given a choice of 2 options, those offering the choices should do so having first thought through the consequences of each. Cameron had no such thoughts, vision or understanding of what was offered nor consequences; someone needs to call the fire brigade.

[Mr.Tease]

9 minutes ago, oneeye said:

But, if you are given a choice of 2 options, those offering the choices should do so having first thought through the consequences of each. Cameron had no such thoughts, vision or understanding of what was offered nor consequences; someone needs to call the fire brigade.

And those choosing should do some basic homework, we're talking about fully grown adults! I heard all the arguments about what a bad idea brexit would be in the campaign, it's not like they weren't warned of the consequences 

[oneeye]

1 minute ago, Mr.Tease said:

And those choosing should do some basic homework, we're talking about fully grown adults! I heard all the arguments about what a bad idea brexit would be in the campaign, it's not like they weren't warned of the consequences 

Yep, but are you really surprised? There are a lot of people out there who have never done any homework...  It's interesting that even after all that's gone before, if we had the vote again tomorrow we would still be a divided nation, albeit remain (If you believe recent polls); beggars belief really. You'd expect it to be a landslide remain wouldn't you.

[mcshed]

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

yep, could be a hung parliament again, but May's not going to care too much, she'll be gone.

As for Corbyn, I wonder if there'll be moves to remove him? If it's an autumn election there's certainly time. Depends if the cultists have wised up, I guess.

I voted Corbyn in both leadership elections but if we're headed to a general election in the autumn I'd welcome another leadership challenge. It would be good for there to be a public debate over Labour's position and it would steal some coverage from the Tories' own leadership contest. Corbyn is at his best in campaign mode and hopefully going round the country speaking to members he'd start to see how much anger there is about Brexit, if it didn't I'd vote for someone else. Hopefully the imminent election would stop it being a "your an anti-semite" "your a Tory" slagging match, although I'm aware that might be wishful thinking. 

[Simsy]

1 hour ago, Mr.Tease said:

If someone gives me a choice of staying in my house or burning it down, how are they responsible if I choose to burn my house down? Sure, the referendum was a daft idea, but it was all Joe public from that point on. 

Yeah, but it was a choice of stay in your house or live somewhere else, and some MPs were saying that somewhere else could be a massive mansion, others were saying you'd have to burn your house down and live in the ashes. Now you want your promised mansion, but that was never going to happen.

It's hard to defend Joe Public for believing the promises of a bus (a fucking bus!), but he was fed a pack of lies from the people who got us in to this mess because they wanted to jump on ukip's bandwagon.

[bombfrog]

If there's a general election I'd assume the Tories would get back in again and install a more right-wing leader if Corbyn is the competition. I've voted labour 2 or 3 times (can't quite remember as I've voted Lib Dem a few times too) but I've never liked Corbyn. Not because I disagree with his ideology, but because he's absolutely useless at being in opposition.

We've got the worst government and the most political turmoil we've had in living memory and the opinion polls still show the've increased their popularity. I actually can't think of a worse leader of the opposition since.... err... IDS I guess.

[uscore]

That's going to be the interesting thing.  

At the moment Corbyn is making Labour seem less electable.  But what if the Tories put in a Boris or someone?  Would that change a few minds?  Which is the better devil you know?

[bombfrog]

People love Boris. I have no idea why.

[uscore]

Some people are c**ts.

[Sawdusty surfer]

56 minutes ago, bombfrog said:

People love Boris. I have no idea why.

I think that his fan base has recently shrunk like a salted slug.

[carlosj]

On one side, there is Maybot and a slick machine to keep them in power, and on the other side, there's a better ideology that's been allowed back since Blair went but a poor leader who isn't loudly fronting a push back on a crap Brexit deal, anti-semitism or any other anti Labour campaign. Much as I loathe all the front runners of the leadership race, they do present a better front than JC and the handling of the message is providing the means to get an unrealistic message to be believed. I may be overplaying it but if the Proms are showing Land of Hope and Glory and cheering crowds each year, then there are a hell of a lot of people who think we are still a major world leader, who are going to vote to leave Europe because we've got so much to offer...

Another example of shit propaganda is from the Wetherspoons boss who said we don't need French champagne because we've got sparkling English wine. Oh, that's all right then, we don't need to import anything now, we've already got a huge production on what we need.

[Ayrshire Chris]

[shoptildrop]

4 hours ago, Simsy said:

It's hard to defend Joe Public for believing the promises of a bus (a fucking bus!), but he was fed a pack of lies from the people who got us in to this mess because they wanted to jump on ukip's bandwagon.

Yet there is still people out there who believe in the lies... I was watching bloody Farage speaking earlier and the amount of cheers he was getting for the usual claptrap was nuts!!

The biggest thing I could not believe is this guy is an EU elected official who has been advising the EU against the UK, then there he is spouting that he will run again as EU MP and sort it all out - like wtf really?? and people where cheering this dude, like how?? ?

[Madyaker]

It’s the responsibilty of the electorate to educate themselves about the question they’re being asked in a referendum. Likewise we should read party manifestos before an election etc. Brexit is a bit different though as when people were asked to vote nobody knew what it would look like or how it would, nor even the UK or EU governments. But I have to say as an Irish person looking in the level of hatred for the EU in your country is amazing. From my perspective in relation to Ireland it’d be very hard to argue that the E.U hasn’t been almost always a massively positive influence.

 

I think May needs to back to the E.U whenever the next meeting is and ask for a long extension, like 6 or 8 months. Then there needs to be a general election. Once a new gov is in they can go to the E.U and renegotiate the withdrawal agreement without Mays red lines and then get it through the HOC and then once that’s sorted let the people vote. Option A: we leave on this date via this agreement or option B: we stay.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Madyaker

[bamber]

On 3/28/2019 at 1:39 AM, bamber said:

 

"When two sounds goes to war (the nation right now) only Rodigan gon'a wear the crown..."

Sweet fucking Jesus, how fucked are we now?

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by bamber

[bamber]

All you Brexit / Conservative People, take notice now, Hell....

 

 

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

Didn't you used to argue that the electorate weren't idiots, that they just reached different conclusions on the same info? I miss those days where that argument was easier to maintain!

Possibly, but probably a different scenario/conversation.

What I think you're missing is that I'm thinking the idiots are roughly shared around, in about the same proportion as the 'smart' votes. Just because someone is voting the same as you doesn't get to mean they're doing it for the same 'smart' reasons as you.

[reflekting]

Tories slowly but surely will fade into irrelevance in the next 10 years. Fair to say that "broad tent" is getting more and more narrow. 

He's my MP, I didn't vote for him as I didn't want a Tory gov, but he's one of the few Tories who actually held his nose on Brexit so I'll be sad to see him go. 

[Mr.Tease]

20 minutes ago, reflekting said:

Tories slowly but surely will fade into irrelevance in the next 10 years. Fair to say that "broad tent" is getting more and more narrow. 

He's my MP, I didn't vote for him as I didn't want a Tory gov, but he's one of the few Tories who actually held his nose on Brexit so I'll be sad to see him go. 

I think they'll have more electoral success with the ERG at the helm (much as I hate them and think they're inept) than if they went back to be  being more 'moderate'- should scoop up the UKIPpers (if they've not been p'd off by Boris etc selling them down the river), in addition to keeping the 30%+ of Tory voters who will always/only vote Tory. That's the zeitgeist at the moment- this ain't the 90s.

 

[mcshed]

31 minutes ago, reflekting said:

Tories slowly but surely will fade into irrelevance in the next 10 years. Fair to say that "broad tent" is getting more and more narrow. 

He's my MP, I didn't vote for him as I didn't want a Tory gov, but he's one of the few Tories who actually held his nose on Brexit so I'll be sad to see him go. 

The person leading the charge for deselection was the UKIP candidate at the last election, yet entryism is always presented as a Labour problem.

[Mr.Tease]

10 hours ago, mcshed said:

I voted Corbyn in both leadership elections but if we're headed to a general election in the autumn I'd welcome another leadership challenge. It would be good for there to be a public debate over Labour's position and it would steal some coverage from the Tories' own leadership contest. Corbyn is at his best in campaign mode and hopefully going round the country speaking to members he'd start to see how much anger there is about Brexit, if it didn't I'd vote for someone else. Hopefully the imminent election would stop it being a "your an anti-semite" "your a Tory" slagging match, although I'm aware that might be wishful thinking. 

As much as it's been criticised, I do think this week highlighted the effectiveness of Labour's Brexit policy, simply because it's managed to hold the PLP together (there were hardly any defections to May's deal)- considering there's such a wide chasm in the PLP between pro-referendum, anti-referendum, pro-brexit, anti-Brexit, which in turn reflects the chasm within labour voters. Sure it's been frustrating and ambiguous, but unfortunately it needed to be. Sure, May's shit deal and her atrocious handling of it helped, but Labour really are in a difficult position. For example, I expect the polls to show a 3-5% drop after yesterday, because despite all the pressure from remainers to adopt their position, whenever they do pivot to remain, their poll rating bizarrely drops by that amount, which I suspect is the UKIPer vote which they managed to capture last election.

So they're caught between their more entrenched voters demanding a more anti-brexit stance, and a sizeable pro-brexit chunk that they need too. It's a bit of a nightmare.

 

[Mr.Tease]

Just now, mcshed said:

The person leading the charge for deselection was the UKIP candidate at the last election, yet entryism is always presented as a Labour problem.

Yes, strange that!