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Brexit at Glasto?


kalifire
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4 minutes ago, Doug85 said:

I've managed to sign up to this about an hour ago, i'm sick of arguing with people who think "Leave means Leave" though- i wish there was just a copy and paste phrase with facts I could send them to make my life easier. 

Unfortunately a lot of the 'leave means leave' brigade have no time for facts or experts unless they are Patrick Minford, and even then they only selectively choose his arguments for a hard brexit

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6 minutes ago, Doug85 said:

I've managed to sign up to this about an hour ago, i'm sick of arguing with people who think "Leave means Leave" though- i wish there was just a copy and paste phrase with facts I could send them to make my life easier. 

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1090930861665599488.html

 

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9 minutes ago, Xeph1995 said:

Apposed to what supporting the Tories?

no, the alternative to defending Jeremy Corbyn is not supporting the Tories. christ almighty. :rolleyes:

no wonder that fucking shambles of a man is still dragging Labour and the country down with attitudes like that.

Edited by ghostdancer1
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3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

their greatest electoral victory came after a war, uin a time of hugely different culture (including before the proven failure of the socialist ideal of the time - including the leftist ideals of that 1945 govt as demonstrated when they were kicked from power 6 years later).

It's not exactly hugely relevant in 2019 - 75 years later - is it?

In Corbynista terms, Wilson would class as a solid Blairite.

The Iraq war was. Nothing else.

(that's not saying that everything else worked out for the best, but that will never happen under any leader).

by going to the left of where things were when he took over...? :blink: 

Blair was a w*nker, but the re-writing of history by some is laughable.

 

In europe the centrists rule and 'the left' are nowhere, apart from in Italy where the right are in charge. As they are in the USA, where the left )a real left!) is hugely-less popular than Trump.

 

How can you say it was a failure purely because they got kicked out? If you look at the way they completely transformed Britain, built the welfar state nhs etc I think the majority of people would say they were a success. 

Blairs politics are Thatcherism with more redistribution of wealth. He was a complete break from any previous labour leader in that regard, as he wasn't a democratic socialist a social democrat. That's not a critique of Blair,  its just a statement of fact. To say Labour has always shifted between centre and left is wrong, 

Under Thatcher we saw a huge shift of politics to the right and neoliberalism became the dominant ideology. We've begun to see that shift back to the left. E.g, policies that under Milliband were being denounced by Cameron as marxist such as freezing gas prices, were in the tory manifesto. We've also seen austerity politics which was mainstream a few years ago completely discredited. 

In Europe centrists governments are syphoning support, look at Macron for example. I dont understand why you think Trump is polling above the left? Most polls i've seen put Sanders as the democrats most credible current candidate, and about 15% ahead of Trump. I think most commentators accept Sanders would have won the last election also

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5 minutes ago, Xeph1995 said:

Tories Centrists all part of the same problem. 

that might be the case.

But if Labour wants to be in government they need to win-over more of the electorate - who are (in your words) those 'Tories Centrists'.

The Corbynistas telling them to fuck off and vote tory is not going to be a winning strategy.

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3 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

Centrists have been so obsessed with Corbyn over the past two years they seem to have no analysis to offer about anything other than "Corbyn is shit" and "everything is Corbyn's fault". Brexit? Corbyn's fault! No second referendum? Corbyn's fault! It's so tedious and superficial. 

Exactly this! Brexit is a tory mess. They called the referendum to sort out a party problem, they called an election so they could wipe the floor with labour and deliver as hard and shit a Brexit as they wanted, they spent 2 years arguinung over what their position on withdrawal actually was, they bungled negotiations, they're risking no deal. Yet Corbyn seems to attract way more scrutiny than tories in this mess. 

Also, the exact reason why remain will lose a second referrendum imo. They'll spend the campaign attacking Corbyn rather than leave, they just can't help themselves

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3 hours ago, Ayrshire Chris said:

We also need labour to restore its dominance in Scotland and push back the nationalists. To have a decent working majority they need to retake the traditional socialist seats especially in central Scotland. Trouble is the nationalist vote,  in my opinion, is like a cult with a single objective  whereas the opposition is split three ways . Labour used to rely on over 40 seats up here. 

Yeah 100% and it'll be difficult to do. As you say nationalists will vote SNP and the tories are now seen as the unionist party. It was actually Scotland that saved the tories from losing the election last time 

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12 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

Exactly this! Brexit is a tory mess. They called the referendum to sort out a party problem, they called an election so they could wipe the floor with labour and deliver as hard and shit a Brexit as they wanted, they spent 2 years arguinung over what their position on withdrawal actually was, they bungled negotiations, they're risking no deal. Yet Corbyn seems to attract way more scrutiny than tories in this mess. 

Also, the exact reason why remain will lose a second referrendum imo. They'll spend the campaign attacking Corbyn rather than leave, they just can't help themselves

They are hoping if they tell people Corbyn is undetectable enough people will believe it. 

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6 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

How can you say it was a failure purely because they got kicked out? If you look at the way they completely transformed Britain, built the welfar state nhs etc I think the majority of people would say they were a success. 

People in general are quite happy with the existence of the NHS and the welfare state. The arguments are about the scope and the cost/funding.

You hear fewer arguing for coal and steel nationalisation nowadays. Guess how-come Thatcher was able to privatise them?

 

6 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

Blairs politics are Thatcherism with more redistribution of wealth. He was a complete break from any previous labour leader in that regard, as he wasn't a democratic socialist a social democrat. That's not a critique of Blair,  its just a statement of fact. To say Labour has always shifted between centre and left is wrong, 

Blair inherited a country that had taken up Thatcherism, and concentrated his efforts on the things which could be done with public support and not the things he'd have to fight the public about. Consequently he got shit-loads done, even if it didn't go as far as many would have wanted.

(personally I think Blair could and should have been bolder because he had the support to do it, but that's ancient history now).

 

6 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

Under Thatcher we saw a huge shift of politics to the right and neoliberalism became the dominant ideology. We've begun to see that shift back to the left. E.g, policies that under Milliband were being denounced by Cameron as marxist such as freezing gas prices, were in the tory manifesto. We've also seen austerity politics which was mainstream a few years ago completely discredited. 

The shift was farless than you imagine, both to the right and back to the left. There was never public support for rail or water privatisation, for example.

Paying the bills will never go out of fashion, unless you know a guy who's doing the whole of the UK a freebie...?

Promising to tax someone else is easy, actually succeeding by doing just that is near impossible. Money is not the finite resources which would be being redeployed.

 

6 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

In Europe centrists governments are syphoning support, look at Macron for example.

and yet the left and the right aren't really picking up the lost support. It's disillusionment in all politicians, here in the UK too.

And it's because there's a public who prefer to be fed an undeliverable lie than to havre a relatively-honest politician tell them how it has to be (just look what happened with May when she suggested actually funding greater govt welfare! Those voters went to labour who promised the world on a stick for free)

 

6 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

I dont understand why you think Trump is polling above the left? Most polls i've seen put Sanders as the democrats most credible current candidate, and about 15% ahead of Trump. I think most commentators accept Sanders would have won the last election also

Sanders is about as left wing as Cameron.

That aside, those that might have indicated support for him in the poll you're referencing weren't asked "are you left wing", they were asked to choose between Sanders and Trump.

In case you missed it, a huge proportion of Labour's votes in 2017 were in spite of Corbyn and not because of him.

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19 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

Brexit is a tory mess. Yet Corbyn seems to attract way more scrutiny than tories in this mess. 

Brexit is a tory mess. Who's going to save us from it?

It's definitely not going to the tories, is it? They want the mess.

It's not going to be Corbyn either. :( 

Which is why he gets the criticism he does.

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35 minutes ago, Xeph1995 said:

Tories Centrists all part of the same problem. 

That pathetic, childish, insular attitude is a bigger problem than anything. Fine if you’re happy with being on the sidelines protesting but not if you ever want your Chosen One in Government.

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12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

he's definitely undetectable.

That's the problem.

Which of his and the Labour parties policies do you actually disagree with? 

Everyone slags labour off but when you start listing their policies off without telling them where it comes from most people seem to agree then you mention him or the party and they instantly back off. 

Edited by Xeph1995
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Just now, Xeph1995 said:

Which of his policies do you actually disagree with? 

What do you mean by policies? Do you mean the stuff in the manifesto, or every time he made promises waaaay beyond what was in the manifesto? :P 

The objectives I agree with. 

That they'll be possible in the way it's been said they'll happen, that's a different thing. Diverting money with better taxes on the rich is a different thing to the diversion of resources that will be necessary in an already (near enough) flat-out economy. Ordinary people are going to feel the hit, different to the promises. 

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If only some people had shown such passion for voting in 2016 as they have in this petition over the last few hours. I wonder how many on the march this weekend even bothered voting in the first place? I know so many people who didn't who are worried/angry now and that's the frustrating/disappointing thing

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