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Ryan Adams

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3 minutes ago, The Nal said:

As a wider point the catch-all thing is a huge problem. Hes been chucked in with Bill Cosby. Who has 50 years of rape, paedophilia and battery charges against him. Ridiculous. Its either completely good good or completely evil. No in between. 

No two wrongs/crimes are the same. 

That's exactly my point, though. Ryan Adams would be, I suppose rightly, upset at me for comparing him to BIll Cosby

 

And yet I'm apparently crazy for calling out someone who's putting posters on this website on the same chalkboard alongside Ryan Adams

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26 minutes ago, Superscally said:

He will have been advised not to comment on all of this, especially the potential underage thing. He has no obligation to let us know, you don't know if he's contrite or not. You don't know if he's given an effective counter. We are not his area of obligation. 

He has commented though. He's made statements on Twitter and effectively denied it all. The ones I posted. 

If he was being advised not to comment then he could have posted a short statement to that effect.

What he has posted, it's clear he's not contrite. It'd be an odd standpoint to post what he's put on Twitter about the girls believing he caused them harm and then in private being much more contrite. 

But i agree, he's not under any obligation to give his side. 

It's 'unfortunate' that the focus is mainly on the potential underage stuff; it kind of misses the point and allows people to focus on one issue rather than appreciating what went on with that girl is a symptom of a pattern of behaviour against multiple women. One just happened to be potentially underage but it's all about power, control and manipulation. 

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5 minutes ago, FatAmmy said:

And yet I'm apparently crazy for calling out someone who's putting posters on this website on the same chalkboard alongside Ryan Adams

You're actually crazy because you keep perpetuating a falsehood, while pretending you mean it. 

I don't believe you're that stupid, but perhaps you are.

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1 hour ago, Hawros said:

Being wound up over oven gloves and implying he might be guilty of similar things as Adams is a bit of a stretch.

Wtf  @ghostdancer1?

It's a really important distinction - Misty's over-intellectualising and snobbishness does come across as dickish, but it's part of the act. It's a world away from what we're discussing here, and to throw them in the same barrel is reductive and irresponsible. 

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15 minutes ago, The Nal said:

As a wider point the catch-all thing is a huge problem. Hes been chucked in with Bill Cosby. Who has 50 years of rape, paedophilia and battery charges against him. Ridiculous. Its either completely good good or completely evil. No in between. 

No two wrongs/crimes are the same. 

Yep. I worry that this lumping them all together ends up almost creating a victim of the perpetrator. 

A sort of "oooh, hang on, Adam's might have had some inexcusable behaviour but it's not fair to compare him to Cosby and Harvey, that's too far".

There was a thing on Twitter by a journo moaning that politics has become footballisied in that you're either simply for or against and any nuanced discussion is shouted down. It's similar to these issues. It's not to excuse Adam's behaviour but people need to acknowledge and condemn his behaviour but at the same time not lump everyone together as it risks creating a victimhood situation.

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14 minutes ago, Keithy said:

There was a thing on Twitter by a journo moaning that politics has become footballisied in that you're either simply for or against and any nuanced discussion is shouted down. It's similar to these issues. It's not to excuse Adam's behaviour but people need to acknowledge and condemn his behaviour but at the same time not lump everyone together as it risks creating a victimhood situation.

This thread is part of it. More discussion on here than when he actually played Glastonbury.

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This is how I see it.

It's not about cancelling Ryan Adams. It's not about a lynch mob. I was shocked to hear the allegations and I think that talking about it is the right thing to do. If these gross situations occur then I want something to come from it to prevent it from happening again and if that means shining a light on an ugly part of the industry / society then so be it. 

People like myself, become offended, disheartened and angry when the conversation veers into an oh too predictable realm of casting doubt ("scraping the barrel") and ignorance ("take out the part about the underage girl").

For many it's a case of get the excuses in early. "Yeah but it's not illegal". Yes I'm sure everyone on here would disagree with abusing a minor and I'm sure nobody would excuse that but it's disappointing to read that the other allegations simply warrant the above response from some people. I imagine the same people would be more bothered by those 'not illegal' behaviors if it were their Daughters, Sisters and Mothers who were having their dreams snatched away from them and their career paths blocked by emotionally abusive and manipulative men.

There's clearly a bigger problem here. Maybe I'm getting too jumped up over nothing. I don't know. I feel like I'm not? Someone please tell me if I'm really getting this horribly wrong... I'm not trying to fight with people over different interpretations of events. I don't want that. I'm just trying to have an open dialogue about something we all know exists, rather than turn a blind eye. If you look for reasons not to have the dialogue ("hold fire before commenting etc"), things will never change. 

It just drives me crazy that for some it's just a shrug of the shoulders. Fair enough, if people think there are bigger and worse problems but that's not really the point. The world doesn't work like that.

Edited by jyoung

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On a wider point - because I've read more than once in this thread about 'not illegal behaviours' or shitty behaviour or whatnot - coercive control (in the UK) is a criminal offence.

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4 minutes ago, jyoung said:

It just drives me crazy that for some it's just a shrug of the shoulders. Fair enough, if people think there are bigger and worse problems but that's not really the point. The world doesn't work like that.

The world works in many different ways, including, perhaps, that what you're feeling is an amount of indifference, isn't?

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9 minutes ago, Keithy said:

He has commented though. He's made statements on Twitter and effectively denied it all. The ones I posted. 

If he was being advised not to comment then he could have posted a short statement to that effect.

What he has posted, it's clear he's not contrite. It'd be an odd standpoint to post what he's put on Twitter about the girls believing he caused them harm and then in private being much more contrite. 

But i agree, he's not under any obligation to give his side. 

It's 'unfortunate' that the focus is mainly on the potential underage stuff; it kind of misses the point and allows people to focus on one issue rather than appreciating what went on with that girl is a symptom of a pattern of behaviour against multiple women. One just happened to be potentially underage but it's all about power, control and manipulation. 

We don't know the facts. If he hasn't done anything wrong (these accounts are anything from completely true to exaggerated by 1-99% or false (with the latter end of the spectrum less likely i.m.o) he shouldn't have to show contrition. He clearly believes they're true to a degree, but obviously doesn't think it's as it's been painted. He has shown contrition. He says he's unreservedly sorry for having hurt people. People have said saying "but" invalidates that, but there are multiple allegations. If some of it is BS he's completely entitled to say so without that invalidation his regret and apology for that.

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14 minutes ago, jyoung said:

This is how I see it.

It's not about cancelling Ryan Adams. It's not about a lynch mob. I was shocked to hear the allegations and I think that talking about it is the right thing to do. If these gross situations occur then I want something to come from it to prevent it from happening again and if that means shining a light on an ugly part of the industry / society then so be it. 

People like myself, become offended, disheartened and angry when the conversation veers into an oh too predictable realm of casting doubt ("scraping the barrel") and ignorance ("take out the part about the underage girl").

For many it's a case of get the excuses in early. "Yeah but it's not illegal". Yes I'm sure everyone on here would disagree with abusing a minor and I'm sure nobody would excuse that but it's disappointing to read that the other allegations simply warrant the above response from some people. I imagine the same people would be more bothered by those 'not illegal' behaviors if it were their Daughters, Sisters and Mothers who were having their dreams snatched away from them and their career paths blocked by emotionally abusive and manipulative men.

There's clearly a bigger problem here. Maybe I'm getting too jumped up over nothing. I don't know. I feel like I'm not? Someone please tell me if I'm really getting this horribly wrong... I'm not trying to fight with people over different interpretations of events. I don't want that. I'm just trying to have an open dialogue about something we all know exists, rather than turn a blind eye. If you look for reasons not to have the dialogue ("hold fire before commenting etc"), things will never change. 

It just drives me crazy that for some it's just a shrug of the shoulders. Fair enough, if people think there are bigger and worse problems but that's not really the point. The world doesn't work like that.

You say you're not trying to fight with anyone, but that's out of order calling my comment ignorance. Completely unproven allegations. I was only taking that out as I didn't want to discuss something that hasn't been proven, so I could discuss my point in isolation. Can you apologise, please?

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15 minutes ago, Woffy said:

On a wider point - because I've read more than once in this thread about 'not illegal behaviours' or shitty behaviour or whatnot - coercive control (in the UK) is a criminal offence.

Not in dispute, it just hasn't been proven. 

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3 minutes ago, Superscally said:

Can you apologise, please?

No.

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This has served as a timely reminder to me as to why I avoid social media and online debate 99% of the time.

I'm only really here for Fleetwood Mac rumours

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8 minutes ago, jyoung said:

No.

Brilliant. Complete hypocrite and bullshitter. Or of course, a comedian. I hope the latter.

Edited by Superscally

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1 hour ago, Keithy said:

It's 'unfortunate' that the focus is mainly on the potential underage stuff; it kind of misses the point and allows people to focus on one issue rather than appreciating what went on with that girl is a symptom of a pattern of behaviour against multiple women. One just happened to be potentially underage but it's all about power, control and manipulation. 

Exactly this. You can’t separate the two because they’re both part of the same problem.

jyoung, you’re right, don’t worry. A lot of people just don’t want to get dragged into this same old arguments you’re talking about because we’ve been over it all before.

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12 minutes ago, Superscally said:

You say you're not trying to fight with anyone, but that's out of order calling my comment ignorance. Completely unproven allegations. I was only taking that out as I didn't want to discuss something that hasn't been proven, so I could discuss my point in isolation. Can you apologise, please?

Unproven in court of law but the legal team at the New York Times signed them off to be published. They must feel that they are on solid ground.

Allegations from multiple, independent women. This isn't one girls claim or version of events. Multiple. 

Facts? Well we have them. The women have given their factual accounts of what happened. Of course his factual accounts might contradict every single one of theirs.

This is not an apology:

...however unintentionally... completely invalidates the apology. 

It smacks of "well I don't think I have done anything wrong but if I have unintentionally hurt anyone, then I'm sorry for them if they felt I had". It's the classic non apology.

An apology would be along the lines of "it's clear from these allegations from ex partners and people I have worked with, that I have exercised a pattern of inexcusable behaviour and I am deeply sorry "

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2 minutes ago, Keithy said:

Unproven in court of law but the legal team at the New York Times signed them off to be published. They must feel that they are on solid ground.

Allegations from multiple, independent women. This isn't one girls claim or version of events. Multiple. 

Facts? Well we have them. The women have given their factual accounts of what happened. Of course his factual accounts might contradict every single one of theirs.

This is not an apology:

...however unintentionally... completely invalidates the apology. 

It smacks of "well I don't think I have done anything wrong but if I have unintentionally hurt anyone, then I'm sorry for them if they felt I had". It's the classic non apology.

An apology would be along the lines of "it's clear from these allegations from ex partners and people I have worked with, that I have exercised a pattern of inexcusable behaviour and I am deeply sorry "

If he thinks it's not true though, why should he apologize for something he believes he hasn't done? If someone said to me, "Listen mate, I didn't mean it, but if I've hurt you I'm sorry", I'd take that as an apology and move on in the most appropriate way. I guess that's just our different approaches I guess.

As for the facts, someone saying something happened doesn't count as facts. Again, for point of emphasis, I'm not defending any genuine bad behaviour, not at all, but multiple people saying things (both of whom have potential axes to grind) doesn't prove stuff unless it's more than that. What does seem clear from the texts however, (as I reckon they have to be real for the NYT to stick its head over the block)  is that he's obviously pretty sleazy which of course isn't something to aspire to. With anything like this, the proper response is to await ALL the facts, not to leap in and hang anyone and I think the proper response has been taken in the suspension of the album release and (probably) tour. 

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8 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

This thread has descended into shite, Neil.

I concur. If true, he doesn't warrant the attention on here and until PROVEN, anyone casting judgement should hold their tongue. 

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9 minutes ago, Superscally said:

he doesn't warrant the attention on here

whether he does or doesn't people have wanted to discuss it.  That's good enough justification for the topic being here i'd say.

And, just perhaps, we all might be able to take some things away from it to think on further. 

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Just now, eFestivals said:

whether he does or doesn't people have wanted to discuss it.  That's good enough justification for the topic being here i'd say.

And, just perhaps, we all might be able to take some things away from it to think on further. 

Yeah, fair play. Just all a bit rotten that stuff like this exists to be discussed. So... I assume he's ruled out of Glasto then? ;)

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24 minutes ago, Superscally said:

If he thinks it's not true though, why should he apologize for something he believes he hasn't done? If someone said to me, "Listen mate, I didn't mean it, but if I've hurt you I'm sorry", I'd take that as an apology and move on in the most appropriate way. I guess that's just our different approaches I guess.

As for the facts, someone saying something happened doesn't count as facts. Again, for point of emphasis, I'm not defending any genuine bad behaviour, not at all, but multiple people saying things (both of whom have potential axes to grind) doesn't prove stuff unless it's more than that. What does seem clear from the texts however, (as I reckon they have to be real for the NYT to stick its head over the block)  is that he's obviously pretty sleazy which of course isn't something to aspire to. With anything like this, the proper response is to await ALL the facts, not to leap in and hang anyone and I think the proper response has been taken in the suspension of the album release and (probably) tour. 

If there are multiple allegations from different women, then I work on the assumption it's broadly true. Not sure what facts or proof you want to come out really. Why would 15+ women lie and Adams be telling the truth?

 

No one is saying he should be hanged. Him having his albums and tours cancelled is the appropriate response

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18 minutes ago, Superscally said:

I concur. If true, he doesn't warrant the attention on here and until PROVEN, anyone casting judgement should hold their tongue. 

On the flip side I think it's incredibly important to have these sort of discussions. This isn't just a one off case - Ameer Vaan from Brockhampton, Jesse Lacey from Brand New, Eric Soucy from Turnover, Matthew Johnson from Hookworms and the pretty much the entire band of The Orwells just to name a few. There is obviously an issue of musicians using their positions to sexually/emotionally abuse young girls and to shut ourselves off from it completely and not talk about it is counter-productive.

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10 minutes ago, deadpheasant said:

On the flip side I think it's incredibly important to have these sort of discussions. This isn't just a one off case - Ameer Vaan from Brockhampton, Jesse Lacey from Brand New, Eric Soucy from Turnover, Matthew Johnson from Hookworms and the pretty much the entire band of The Orwells just to name a few. There is obviously an issue of musicians using their positions to sexually/emotionally abuse young girls and to shut ourselves off from it completely and not talk about it is counter-productive.

Again, fair point, maybe I'm just depressed about the whole shitty situation. I guess talk often brings stuff into the open, but it's rubbish that once the mud has been flung it often sticks despite innocence being proven.

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