eFestivals Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, jackarmy said: Who heads up the Remain campaign this time? Caroline Lucas. That'd do it I reckon. Not sure she'd be up for it tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackarmy Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, eFestivals said: it wouldn't be "WTO terms" it would be "no terms". There's much more to this than just trade. You would imagine that before they reached that stage they would have agreed on what the Leave outcome would look like surely? I just couldn't see Parliament ratifying a question on the ballot that would allow the UK to leave on absolutely no deal in regards to things like aviation, passporting for the City of London, security. 2 minutes ago, eFestivals said: Caroline Lucas. That'd do it I reckon. Not sure she'd be up for it tho. I don't think she would be up for it to be honest, and how much sway would she have with the average person on the street? You could make a case for Starmer I suppose, he's come across as the best of the Labour front bench since his appointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Music Girl Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Ayrshire Chris said: Corbyn has an open goal with idiots like may, boris and Rees Mogg as opposition and he is not willing to shoot. He should be fronting the campaign for a second vote and would get support from all parties. I reckon he is fearful of losing votes in the leaver areas of north England. He needs to realise opinions have changed. I’ve always thought that the whole issue of immigration dominated the first vote. Now the economic realities of Brexit are clearer voters opinions will change. It's not just that though - Corbyn doesn't want to remain in the EU, never has, so wouldn't want to risk a remain win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, jackarmy said: You would imagine that before they reached that stage they would have agreed on what the Leave outcome would look like surely? Brexiters agree on something? 2 minutes ago, jackarmy said: I just couldn't see Parliament ratifying a question on the ballot that would allow the UK to leave on absolutely no deal in regards to things like aviation, passporting for the City of London, security. There is only May's deal or no-deal. Stuff like aviation would get dealt with in some manner but it's not in the UK govts power so they can't really go saying how something that hasn't been agreed might work. (Passporting is being thrown off the cliff with current plans, and there's not been much of a kick off about that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Tease Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 36 minutes ago, jackarmy said: So, assuming May's deal is dead in the water after the vote the other day... We have a second referendum, what does the Government put as the question on the ballot? "Remain in the European Union OR Leave the European Union on WTO terms?" For a convincing Remain vote, which I think is necessary to kill the question dead, you need to win round a convincing percentage of the Leave voters. Who heads up the Remain campaign this time? A lot of arch Remainers are toxic to a big section of the electorate. It's a right ol' mess innit? That's the main worry I have for a second referendum - remain side would be so fractured and would be led by people who despise each other (doubt they'd be able to resist infighting) and are quite polarising figures- it could be a mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire Chris Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, mcshed said: How many Leave supporters do you know who've changed their minds? Quite a few up here despite it being a strong remain area, don’t know about further south. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Jass Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, eFestivals said: (Passporting is being thrown off the cliff with current plans, and there's not been much of a kick off about that). Are they not going to be blue anymore? I thought that's what it was all for. {Grabs hi-vis jacket} Edited January 18, 2019 by Hugh Jass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 35 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said: {Grabs hi-vis jacket} is that you Nigel...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNoise Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 4 hours ago, Hugh Jass said: {Grabs hi-vis jacket} Can you tell me where the nearest toilets are please ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple aki squat Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 12 hours ago, eFestivals said: Caroline Lucas. That'd do it I reckon. Not sure she'd be up for it tho. Someone needs to. When is somebody going to state the obvious that this whole situation has been brought about by people being lied to. Arrange a march on Westminster that will define a generation. It needs something huge to make the government understand they are not carrying out the will of the people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 7 hours ago, Purple aki squat said: When is somebody going to state the obvious ... I think this guy nailed it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slash's hat Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 Not in favour of a peoples vote as democratically the decision was taken and should be upheld. Personal views have to be put aside. Should have had discussion with eu then put options available up for vote in an ideal world. Trouble with a 2nd referendum is also that there are those that voted leave based on one policy/issue. Immigration. There are still plenty who will ignore or don't understand the rest of the shit show going on and will still vote on that one issue. Those people are on my Facebook page (can't pick you're family unfortunately...Some serious tongue holding on my part going on). Corbyn will have to nail his colours to his mast at some point and come out publicly with what he wants and truly believes he can get...which I suspect are miles apart. He does look foolish and petty to not engage in talks, though neither side could be considered to be rolling in glory over any of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Star Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 The only way a second referendum will work is if it's thought through properly, the question is agreed on AND what the outcome of that looks like. Ireland's had a few referendums on different things, and the question has been asked with the answers outlining what will happen. The 2016 thing was rushed and not thought out at all, stay the same we knew, but they say what the other outcome was. If that'd been done properly then maybe we wouldn't be in this mess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Tease Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 1 hour ago, slash's hat said: Not in favour of a peoples vote as democratically the decision was taken and should be upheld. Personal views have to be put aside. Should have had discussion with eu then put options available up for vote in an ideal world. Trouble with a 2nd referendum is also that there are those that voted leave based on one policy/issue. Immigration. There are still plenty who will ignore or don't understand the rest of the shit show going on and will still vote on that one issue. Those people are on my Facebook page (can't pick you're family unfortunately...Some serious tongue holding on my part going on). Corbyn will have to nail his colours to his mast at some point and come out publicly with what he wants and truly believes he can get...which I suspect are miles apart. He does look foolish and petty to not engage in talks, though neither side could be considered to be rolling in glory over any of this. Well, reports tonight are that her plan b is to reject a cross party approach and instead focus on shoring up the support of the ERG and DUP, by focusing on removing or changing the backstop (so basically stick with plan A and run down the clock)- she’s rejecting a permanent customs union and a softer brexit, so he was right not to waste time with her Pretend cross party talks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNoise Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 8 hours ago, Dark Star said: The only way a second referendum will work is if it's thought through properly, the question is agreed on AND what the outcome of that looks like. Ireland's had a few referendums on different things, and the question has been asked with the answers outlining what will happen. The 2016 thing was rushed and not thought out at all, stay the same we knew, but they say what the other outcome was. If that'd been done properly then maybe we wouldn't be in this mess? That's because nobody knew what the outcome would be of a leave vote. And nobody actually thought it would win anyway. The image of BoJo and the red bus was a powerful one. Of course anybody with half a brain would know that we didn't just pay the money for nothing. So we just give the money to the NHS, what about the farmers ? Are they supposed to continue with no subsidies, making a loss because the supermarkets are setting the prices ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 10 hours ago, slash's hat said: Not in favour of a peoples vote as democratically the decision was taken and should be upheld. the decision was taken for a unavailable unicorn version of brexit, which means it was no decision, and is why polling is showing something entirely different for the real-world options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfuhruhurr Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 I'm a remainer - I want the whole thing cancelled, but, here goes my solution: Attack Article 50 - the process, not the decision. Art 50 is impossible to implement, it's broken, so step one is to cancel it. Next, gain consensus, which should be pretty easy with the smaller countries, that if a big island can't leave via Art.50, then they are totally buggered. Let the know they are in Royston Vasey. That should trigger a movement to reform, not just article 50 but the EU as one big blob. At the mo, we can't leave because all the EU institutions are inextricably linked, well, that's bollocks. Split them out, put a price/cost of being part of them next to them, let members decide what benefits they want/don't want. A menu - science, pharma, euro, customs, free trade, etc etc. you pay, you play. Solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire Chris Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 If May is spending her time trying to get the support from Rees Mogg, boris and the DUP then corbyn was right to ignore her and her sham of cross party talks. Brexit has always been about in fighting in the Tory party. The country has been dragged into this long running dispute. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 32 minutes ago, hfuhruhurr said: if a big island can't leave via Art.50 but it can. It just can't cherry pick all the nice stuff and leave with no consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slash's hat Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, eFestivals said: the decision was taken for a unavailable unicorn version of brexit, which means it was no decision, and is why polling is showing something entirely different for the real-world options. I agree people voted for something on a basis that with hindsight (A wonderful thing), can't and won't happen. There may be a lean towards remain now but still no huge swing even in light of what is known - which I find worrying. Result of holding 2nd vote is disillusioned voters again who won't bother turning out as government can't be trusted to respect their vote. Had I voted leave then I would be very unhappy with my local mp voting down Teresa's deal if they were supposed to be representing my whole constituency wish to leave. I understand the need to do so with backstop issue, and Theresa caught between rock and hard place on that one, but she has promised to get job done, one she promised in GE. What is Corbyn offering? What does he think he can get past EU that she can't? As representative of opposition surely he has a duty to turn up and put his case (If indeed he has one) across. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezhyp1 Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, eFestivals said: but it can. It just can't cherry pick all the nice stuff and leave with no consequences. This is it, and it's something the EU have reiterated time and time again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott129 Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, slash's hat said: What is Corbyn offering? What does he think he can get past EU that she can't? A permanent customs union. The EU has said it will renegotiate provided May drops her red lines, one of which is that we can't enter a customs union with the EU. Admittedly Corbyn has been extremely non-commital as to brexit or a second ref, but he has been very clear about the type of Brexit he would negotiate if he were in charge. For the record I think remain would lose a second referendum anyway. Very few people have actually changed their minds and no doubt a remain campaign lead to by people like Blair, Campbell and Cable would spend more time attacking Corbyn than leave campaign. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, Scott129 said: A permanent customs union. but that's nothing of the issue that's stopping MPs voting for anything. There's a reason why May is going back (yet again) to the EU about the backstop. MPs won't vote thru a deal which hands over the UK's sovereignty over Northern Ireland to the EU on a permanent basis (until the EU says otherwise). If Corbyn could get 600 MPs to agree to a customs union those MPs still wouldn't vote thru a deal that included the backstop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, Scott129 said: .... and no doubt a remain campaign lead to by people like Blair, Campbell and Cable would spend more time attacking Corbyn than leave campaign. you mean like Corbyn attacked the remain campaign last time and insisted the govt promote leave (even tho he claimed to be for remain)? Corbyn wants brexit. The country does not, at least not on the available possibilities for brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Tease Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, eFestivals said: but that's nothing of the issue that's stopping MPs voting for anything. There's a reason why May is going back (yet again) to the EU about the backstop. MPs won't vote thru a deal which hands over the UK's sovereignty over Northern Ireland to the EU on a permanent basis (until the EU says otherwise). If Corbyn could get 600 MPs to agree to a customs union those MPs still wouldn't vote thru a deal that included the backstop. Reading between the lines (and from what Kier said in his interview this weekend, when he suddenly said agreeing to the backstop might be unavoidable at this stage), I think what the EU might offer is keep the backstop but change it to temporary/fixed date/unilateral exit mechanism IF the UK agrees to a permanent customs union. Which kind of makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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