June 2018

[Hugh Jass]

The problem is I have half a dozen screens/devices that can be used to try from but only two eyes and two hands (plus Mrs Jass).

The plan will be to F5 on my work laptop and mobile phone like crazy whilst having an iPad, other laptop and work phone refreshing every 20 seconds.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Hugh Jass

[stuartbert two hats]

1 hour ago, Pinhead said:

Yeah, quite probably. Else hammering away with your desktop based browser actually reduces your chances of getting in (because See use some sort of traffic flow / DoS filter at the front end), then you try once again your phone for luck and get straight through cos its been comparatively idle. The only thing I could think of where 3/4G might have offered an advantage was that See had some agreement in place with the mobile carriers to bias towards their network for their customers, however this would likely cause a bit of a ruckus if it was ever discovered and there's no logical point in entering into such an arrangement anyway if it can't be publicised in the first place to your customers / competitors.

If it does work that way, then standing up 2 or 3 VMs in the cloud certainly seems like it could help.

[Quark]

14 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

The problem is I have half a dozen screens/devices that can be used to try from but only two eyes and two hands (plus Mrs Jass).

The plan will be to F5 on my work laptop and mobile phone like crazy whilst having an iPad, other laptop and work phone refreshing every 20 seconds.

As I understand it, having multiple browsers open doesn't increase the chances, so it's effectively just one instance per device.  Create a semicircle of technology with a bowl of cereal in the middle. and just pivot from one side to the other hitting F5 as you go.  With only one window per device to worry about it's easier to keep focus if one succeeds.

3 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

If it does work that way, then standing up 2 or 3 VMs in the cloud certainly seems like it could help.

Given that they're on the lookout for methods that are clearly bot based, how would you manage to monitor and manage that many instances though? 

[stuartbert two hats]

Just now, Quark said:

As I understand it, having multiple browsers open doesn't increase the chances, so it's effectively just one instance per device.  Create a semicircle of technology with a bowl of cereal in the middle. and just pivot from one side to the other hitting F5 as you go.  With only one window per device to worry about it's easier to keep focus if one succeeds.

Given that they're on the lookout for methods that are clearly bot based, how would you manage to monitor and manage that many instances though? 

Well that's the beauty of it - if Pinhead's right that a relatively idle IP could actually have an edge, then I don't need to be hammering them all quite so fast.  And since I've got them open in remote desktop windows, I can refresh them as easily as with another browser.  I can probably not bother with Chrome and Firefox AND Edge if I've got those two on the go.

[Hugh Jass]

5 minutes ago, Quark said:

As I understand it, having multiple browsers open doesn't increase the chances, so it's effectively just one instance per device.  Create a semicircle of technology with a bowl of cereal in the middle. and just pivot from one side to the other hitting F5 as you go.  With only one window per device to worry about it's easier to keep focus if one succeeds.

Aye, definitely one open window per device.

Baby Jass will be eight months old by then, she should be able to use an F5 key by then.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, Pinhead said:

If they are recycled public IP's, then that reputation is only as good as their last customer...

I've got a range of IPs assigned to me (I rent them) thru my broadband, and only one of them has been used in the time i've had them (5 years).

One year I tried using them for buying G tickets, and didn't have any luck with any of them.

So I don't think there's anything going on with IP 'reputations', because there are only bad reputations to be got with a system like that - and an unused IP wouldn't have a bad rep.

Edited July 19, 2018 by eFestivals

[Hugh Jass]

Might just invest in an army of these:

[stuartbert two hats]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

I've got a range of IPs assigned to me (I rent them) thru my broadband, and only one of them has been used in the time i've had them (5 years).

One year I tried using them for buying G tickets, and didn't have any luck with any of them.

So I don't think there's anything going on with IP 'reputations', because there are only bad reputations to be got with a system like that - and an unused IP wouldn't have a bad rep.

Yeah, I remember you saying you went hi-tech one year and didn't get a sniff.  Then the next year tried a single browser window and scored! Similarly, although I did try the VM approach one year, it didn't actually get me anything.

[Quark]

2 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Well that's the beauty of it - if Pinhead's right that a relatively idle IP could actually have an edge, then I don't need to be hammering them all quite so fast.  And since I've got them open in remote desktop windows, I can refresh them as easily as with another browser.  I can probably not bother with Chrome and Firefox AND Edge if I've got those two on the go.

Fair enough.

Remind me... in terms of connections there's no benefit to, for example, multiple Chrome tabs, but having Chrome AND Firefox open works.  Right? 

[eFestivals]

Just now, stuartbert two hats said:

Yeah, I remember you saying you went hi-tech one year and didn't get a sniff.  Then the next year tried a single browser window and scored! Similarly, although I did try the VM approach one year, it didn't actually get me anything.

the clever stuff they might - just perhaps - be doing is geographic filtering. It's something that was talked at me by someone in the know many years ago as an idea they might pursue.

If they're doing that (I doubt it myself) it'd be impossible to take advantage of for a punter without someone in the know telling where they were preferencing.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Quark said:

Remind me... in terms of connections there's no benefit to, for example, multiple Chrome tabs, but having Chrome AND Firefox open works.  Right? 

It works, but it's also possible for a system to detect that's what you're doing and to disadvantage you because of it (again, I doubt they'd be doing this, but you never know).

[stuartbert two hats]

7 minutes ago, Quark said:

Fair enough.

Remind me... in terms of connections there's no benefit to, for example, multiple Chrome tabs, but having Chrome AND Firefox open works.  Right? 

Maybe.  It can certainly be counter-productive in terms of confusing the sessions  if you used multiple tabs, as the cookies are shared between them, so stuff can get out of step if you're at different stages in two tabs at once.

Having different browsers on the same machine doesn't break things in that way, that's for sure, but whether it counts against you at the network level - I really don't know.

[Pinhead]

Yeah, I mean if you are managing those IP's and not using them for anything else then you're determining their reputation. Some broadband systems cycle though IP's which can introduce ones with poor reps. Sometimes the IP blacklisting databases are really strict and blacklist a whole subnet, which even if you are only using a proportion of it, means you're tarnished by the reputation of the whole range.

[eFestivals]

56 minutes ago, Pinhead said:

Sometimes the IP blacklisting databases are really strict and blacklist a whole subnet

just about all domestic IP address ranges are blacklisted for (direct) mailing purposes, but it would be very daft to use that info for web traffic.

[Havors]

19 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Well that's the beauty of it - if Pinhead's right that a relatively idle IP could actually have an edge, then I don't need to be hammering them all quite so fast.  And since I've got them open in remote desktop windows, I can refresh them as easily as with another browser.  I can probably not bother with Chrome and Firefox AND Edge if I've got those two on the go.

Would depend on what they have the TTL set to? That would determine how long it holds your packet for before discarding it and then you NEED to refresh. There is a problem with spamming refresh I would believe as if you refresh and it connects and then you have already hit refresh again... would it drop you out of the session?

[stuartbert two hats]

31 minutes ago, Havors said:

Would depend on what they have the TTL set to? That would determine how long it holds your packet for before discarding it and then you NEED to refresh. There is a problem with spamming refresh I would believe as if you refresh and it connects and then you have already hit refresh again... would it drop you out of the session?

Do you mean refresh before the page has finished loading?  I never used to do that when it was possible, but in the last couple of years, the page has been reloading in sub-second, so it's pretty hard to do that these days even if I wanted to.  

Edited July 20, 2018 by stuartbert two hats

[Havors]

8 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Do you mean refresh before the page has finished loading?  I never used to do that when it was possible, but in the last couple of years, the page has been reloading in sub-second, so it's pretty hard to do that these days even if I wanted to.  

Yeah true its pretty fast these days with better servers. I worry though that refreshing a white page im not actually refreshing anything and i cant even get to a page to actually refresh! haha all i seen was a white page for an hour last ticket sale... 

 

[stuartbert two hats]

2 hours ago, Havors said:

Yeah true its pretty fast these days with better servers. I worry though that refreshing a white page im not actually refreshing anything and i cant even get to a page to actually refresh! haha all i seen was a white page for an hour last ticket sale... 

 

Yeah I do too.  I'm fairly ignorant about the network infrastructure about session reputation, stickiness and TTL (if it's different to DNS TTL), but I am a web developer, so most of the time when my sites are giving a white screen, it's because my code is slow and the page is in the process of loading.

[balti-pie]

I love reading all this technical stuff about cookies, servers and IP addresses but I’m buggered if I know what any of it means. I seem to recall some shortcut thing one year where you had to edit your PC log-in and connect directly to a SeeTickets server (in some primary school? Why do I remember this stuff) but while reading the tip on here and scratching my head as to what it meant I got through anyways: I’ve tried for tickets six times and got through five,  with absolutely no idea about tactics beyond smashing the f5 button really . . . So I think the moral of my story is that sometimes you get through and sometimes you don’t, and stressing about it doesn’t change your odds ?

[Havors]

On 7/20/2018 at 4:00 PM, stuartbert two hats said:

Yeah I do too.  I'm fairly ignorant about the network infrastructure about session reputation, stickiness and TTL (if it's different to DNS TTL), but I am a web developer, so most of the time when my sites are giving a white screen, it's because my code is slow and the page is in the process of loading.

Thats my point.... if the page is in the process of loading and you hit refresh again how do you know you werent on the ticket holding paye thing? haha! Im guessing if you connect it will load pretty quick as there are less people on the ticket page than are on the main page?? Who knows I just need tickets!!! 12 of them... nightmare! ha 

[Tyonks]

On 7/23/2018 at 9:07 AM, Havors said:

Thats my point.... if the page is in the process of loading and you hit refresh again how do you know you werent on the ticket holding paye thing? haha! Im guessing if you connect it will load pretty quick as there are less people on the ticket page than are on the main page?? Who knows I just need tickets!!! 12 of them... nightmare! ha 

I have a conundrum on TDAY that 8 people in my group are going to need tickets, if I remember rights (it has been nearly 2 years now!) it's max 6 tickets per person, so if we get through someone from the group is going to miss out unless they can also get tickets ofc. 

[Quark]

9 hours ago, Tyonks said:

I have a conundrum on TDAY that 8 people in my group are going to need tickets, if I remember rights (it has been nearly 2 years now!) it's max 6 tickets per person, so if we get through someone from the group is going to miss out unless they can also get tickets ofc. 

You remember correctly, 6 per person. This is why I actively try to discourage more people form coming unless they fit into a block of 6

[Tyonks]

10 hours ago, Quark said:

You remember correctly, 6 per person. This is why I actively try to discourage more people form coming unless they fit into a block of 6

You're a smart man! ☺️

[gsp8181]

On 7/19/2018 at 3:04 PM, Pinhead said:

Yeah, quite probably. Else hammering away with your desktop based browser actually reduces your chances of getting in (because See use some sort of traffic flow / DoS filter at the front end), then you try once again your phone for luck and get straight through cos its been comparatively idle. The only thing I could think of where 3/4G might have offered an advantage was that See had some agreement in place with the mobile carriers to bias towards their network for their customers, however this would likely cause a bit of a ruckus if it was ever discovered and there's no logical point in entering into such an arrangement anyway if it can't be publicised in the first place to your customers / competitors.

There is a routing table either at an intermediate router or on a load balancer. That got overloaded one year and as such all connections were dropped originating from new IPs probably because the program that was managing adding iptables rules was too overloaded to cope. Entirely the same principle that using bittorrent with 100+ connections knackers old routers. Mobile connections work better because they are behind a NAT and multiple people share a single IP. Therefore the chances are somebody else has already connected from that mobile network which has an existing routing rule in place are pretty high.

From personal experience with scaling cloud systems they are NOT operating a queue (defined as first in first out), it would be incredibly computationally intensive given that the hardware is only used 4 days a year. They also love to brag about how fast tickets sell out. I have had multiple devices open that have entered the queue in order and have been placed on the ticket screen in a completely different order that the site was accessed. They also will not rate limit by IP only given that a lot of people use corporate/uni/mobile networks share external IPs (they filter by the X-Mapping-???????? cookie which is shared per browser). A uni would have hundreds of hits per second even if none really press F5, vs a bloke with 5 browsers open refreshing like mad on his own IP. If they operated a queue it would mean that if you did not enter the site at the time that the tickets come on sale, you would have no chance, and i've had evidence to the opposite. Tickets would sell in a more logarithmic way resulting in a slow sell out but this is a bit complex to explain on a forum post .

They instead operate a token system. They have 3 main load balancers split via DNS which has a number of holding machines and ticket buying machines. For instance there could be 10000 tokens, each time you refresh it would see if a token is available and route you over to the ticket buying machine, if there wasn't then it would keep you on the holding machine. Once you've bought your ticket, the token would be released. If you refresh though on the page immediately after getting onto the ticket buying page it would boot you out again to discourage auto refreshers. This would boot you out for all tabs in the same browser as it does it by X-Mapping, i.e. if you get through and another tab gets through and autorefreshes, it would kick both instances out.

There are a number of different load balancers and routing in place and i'm actually impressed by it's resilience given the immense amount of traffic it must see compared to other shoddy jobs I regularly use

Tl;dr it's pure luck whether you press F5 the moment a space frees up, there is no ip filtering in place because it would disqualify a large chunk of the population such as uni students and people at work

Edited August 9, 2018 by gsp8181

[Crazyfool01]

1 hour ago, gsp8181 said:

There is a routing table either at an intermediate router or on a load balancer. That got overloaded one year and as such all connections were dropped originating from new IPs probably because the program that was managing adding iptables rules was too overloaded to cope. Entirely the same principle that using bittorrent with 100+ connections knackers old routers. Mobile connections work better because they are behind a NAT and multiple people share a single IP. Therefore the chances are somebody else has already connected from that mobile network which has an existing routing rule in place are pretty high.

From personal experience with scaling cloud systems they are NOT operating a queue (defined as first in first out), it would be incredibly computationally intensive given that the hardware is only used 4 days a year. They also love to brag about how fast tickets sell out. I have had multiple devices open that have entered the queue in order and have been placed on the ticket screen in a completely different order that the site was accessed. They also will not rate limit by IP only given that a lot of people use corporate/uni/mobile networks share external IPs (they filter by the X-Mapping-???????? cookie which is shared per browser). A uni would have hundreds of hits per second even if none really press F5, vs a bloke with 5 browsers open refreshing like mad on his own IP. If they operated a queue it would mean that if you did not enter the site at the time that the tickets come on sale, you would have no chance, and i've had evidence to the opposite. Tickets would sell in a more logarithmic way resulting in a slow sell out but this is a bit complex to explain on a forum post .

They instead operate a token system. They have 3 main load balancers split via DNS which has a number of holding machines and ticket buying machines. For instance there could be 10000 tokens, each time you refresh it would see if a token is available and route you over to the ticket buying machine, if there wasn't then it would keep you on the holding machine. Once you've bought your ticket, the token would be released. If you refresh though on the page immediately after getting onto the ticket buying page it would boot you out again to discourage auto refreshers. This would boot you out for all tabs in the same browser as it does it by X-Mapping, i.e. if you get through and another tab gets through and autorefreshes, it would kick both instances out.

There are a number of different load balancers and routing in place and i'm actually impressed by it's resilience given the immense amount of traffic it must see compared to other shoddy jobs I regularly use

Tl;dr it's pure luck whether you press F5 the moment a space frees up, there is no ip filtering in place because it would disqualify a large chunk of the population such as uni students and people at work

Hardly understood a word of it ... but thats some first post