Football 18/19

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

If it is class, there is still a racial element to it though. 

In a world with only one race, classism would still exist. 

 

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I think if we are talking about the origins of the racist abuse he is getting, sterling, John Barnes, sol campbell are probably right and would be best placed to know.

yep, about the racist abuse they're very probably spot on (tho i wouldn't take even the slightest thing from "i am sol campbell the best player in the world" into it).

Meanwhile, I've raised other stuff, which you are deeming only-racist when all the same things can be seen for white players.

[zahidf]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

yep, about the racist abuse they're very probably spot on (tho i wouldn't take even the slightest thing from "i am sol campbell the best player in the world" into it).

Meanwhile, I've raised other stuff, which you are deeming only-racist when all the same things can be seen for white players.

Some white players. Whilst black players get it worse. (And sterling certainly seems to get it worse than say, Harry kane, who is more his contemporary than Rooney is). 

They may be other elements, but if black players are saying that the paper coverage is racially biased about  them and is increasing the abuse they are getting, I don't see why that is minimised.

[eFestivals]

As i've dared to challenge the narrative, I'll re-raise something I intended to leave alone - twerkgate.

Where dickish DJ *DID* do the dancing thing with bloke as well as woman, where the 'offence' taken was wildly different to the acted-up clip that got posted here, and where full-on feminists are calling out daft blokes for how they jumped on it.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Some white players.

not every player - black or white - is the current highest profile English player and so getting press to the same level.  

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I don't see why that is minimised.

I don't see why it should be over-played by you. 

Sterling is perfectly entitled to raise what he thinks, but intelligent people should apply their intelligence.

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, zahidf said:

And sterling certainly seems to get it worse than say, Harry kane, who is more his contemporary than Rooney is

Get back to me when Kane has given ill-advised interviews that suggest a money-grubbing attitude. Get back to me when Kane has been accused of violent abuse by his girlfriend to help set a narrative around Kane. 

Funnily enough, different people are different, and by more than just skin colour.

When those fighting racism reduce a person to just their skin colour, who's fighting racism?

Edited December 11, 2018 by eFestivals

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Get back to me when Kane has given ill-advised interviews that suggest a money-grubbing attitude. Get back to me when Kane has been accused of abuse by his girlfriend to help set a narrative around Kane. 

Funnily enough, different people are different, and by more than just skin colour.

When those defending racism reduce a person to just their skin colour, who's defending racism?

Ah, sterling is partly to blame then?

So when black footballers complain about institutional racism from the press coverage about them, they are 'reducing a person to just a skin colour?'

 

[eFestivals]

34 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

just to be clear when there's people who cannot read about.

I am not saying that Sterling is completely wrong. I'm saying he's not completely right.

repeated, to also be on this page.

[zahidf]

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I don't see why it should be over-played by you. 

Sterling is perfectly entitled to raise what he thinks, but intelligent people should apply their intelligence.

Over played? One of the highest profile footballers in the country has accused the press of institutional racism against black footballers. It's clearly a major story!

[eFestivals]

Just now, zahidf said:

Ah, sterling is partly to blame then?

Sterling is as able to be criticised for what he does and what goes on around him as any white player.

 

Just now, zahidf said:

So when black footballers complain about institutional racism from the press coverage about them, they are 'reducing a person to just a skin colour?'

 

Sterling raised a few specific points, which may or may not be correctly identified.

You're now trying to apply what he raised to everything ever said about it. 

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

Over played? One of the highest profile footballers in the country has accused the press of institutional racism against black footballers. It's clearly a major story!

and you're trying to claim that all criticisms of Sterling are driven only by racism.  

[zahidf]

12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and you're trying to claim that all criticisms of Sterling are driven only by racism.  

Nope. I'm saying there is institutional racism in the way the press covers black players, consciousor unconscious 

[eFestivals]

Just now, zahidf said:

Nope. I'm saying there is institutional racism in the way the press covers black players, consciousor unconscious 

no shit sherlock. There's also fair comment.

A negative comment can be one, or the other, or a mix.

And not your version.

[pink_triangle]

Isn't there also a factor that some players  are more willing to play the media game. I'm thinking the likes of Gerrard, Kane, post 98 Beckham and that's why they get an easier ride.

 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Isn't there also a factor that some players  are more willing to play the media game. I'm thinking the likes of Gerrard, Kane, post 98 Beckham and that's why they get an easier ride.

 

as I said, there's all sorts of different things going on. There's definitely some racism in there, but it's not everything that's being claimed by some.

As one example against what you've said, Sterling also tried to play the media game. Did it go tits up because he's black or because of what came out of his mouth?

It's worth remembering alongside of that that he had advice to not do it, but did it anyway.

[mjsell]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Who wants to remember someone by their violent murder?  

I'm not defending getting a gun tattoo when you are a professional footballer watched by millions, but isn't chosing how to remember someone completely up to the individual? I'd take offence to someone telling me how I can and can't remember my loved ones. 

[eFestivals]

Just now, mjsell said:

I'm not defending getting a gun tattoo when you are a professional footballer watched by millions, but isn't chosing how to remember someone completely up to the individual? I'd take offence to someone telling me how I can and can't remember my loved ones. 

I fully accept it's up to him.  

Just like he should fully accept that others might think he's a dick for thinking his father's cause of violent death is a suitable way to remember his father.

But hey, I'm someone who laughs his arse off at the roadside memorials that get constantly refreshed with flowers. I think there's better ways to remember people's lives than their death.

[jyoung]

Even if some of the media witch hunt comes from a place of racism, surely it's wrong and right for people to speak up? Surely it makes more sense to address it and face up to it, it's place in society and the knock on effect it has rather than turning a blind eye, getting on the defence and protesting "but it's not all racist"... Fight the right fight?

[kaosmark2]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

anyone who gets a gun tat is a dick.

The guy who gets a gun tat to remember how his dad died is a bigger prick. Who wants to remember someone by their violent murder?  

BTW, one of Little Mix has got a gun tat. Was all over the papers. Racist? 

I agree it was a twattish thing to do. It was always going invite criticism, and some of it was always going to be justified.

But if zahidf is calling out other papers for reporting on it, it's right to call out his different standards of how he's treating The Guardian.

[eFestivals]

31 minutes ago, jyoung said:

right for people to speak up?

absolutely - but that doesn't mean that they should be thinking that all criticisms are only about racism, given the many examples of similar criticisms towards non-black players.

The classism stuff is just as wrong, but it's about classism and not* racism.
(* I fully accept the two can be wrapped together, but if you're going to call racism you need to be able to see it. If you can't see it, call it as classism).

[kaosmark2]

The example Sterling posted about was clear racism, two 20 yr olds from City on the fringes of getting games, one gets lambasted for splashing out on a £2m mansion for his mother, one gets praised for the canny investment of buying a £2m house for his dear mum.

[eFestivals]

Just now, kaosmark2 said:

The example Sterling posted about was clear racism, two 20 yr olds from City on the fringes of getting games, one gets lambasted for splashing out on a £2m mansion for his mother, one gets praised for the canny investment of buying a £2m house for his dear mum.

I've not read the articles but i have seen the headlines.

And what you say might be right, but it might not be too. It's only "right by default" if it's also right to reduce those two individuals to only their skin colour - which is the racism we're trying to eliminate.

[zahidf]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I've not read the articles but i have seen the headlines.

And what you say might be right, but it might not be too. It's only "right by default" if it's also right to reduce those two individuals to only their skin colour - which is the racism we're trying to eliminate.

But what is the hidden reason for the different coverage other than racism??? Sterling says it's because of institutional racism in the press. What reason are you saying is more persuasive than that?

[zahidf]

16 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

absolutely - but that doesn't mean that they should be thinking that all criticisms are only about racism, given the many examples of similar criticisms towards non-black players.

The classism stuff is just as wrong, but it's about classism and not* racism.
(* I fully accept the two can be wrapped together, but if you're going to call racism you need to be able to see it. If you can't see it, call it as classism).

A lot of people, such as the black footballers talking about it, do see it and call it racism. As lineker says here in response to piers morgan