Formula 1

[charlierc]

I've seen a few people already making predictions for who's gonna win the 2022 title. Imo feels too soon for that and that we at least need testing before jumping to a rash conclusion.

[charlierc]

On 1/23/2022 at 10:48 AM, Ozanne said:

This is a very good thread detailing the many decisions that handed Verstappen the title last year. When put like this it’s very hard to see that the FIA wanted to ensure he won the title. 

 

On 1/23/2022 at 10:48 AM, Ozanne said:

This is a very good thread detailing the many decisions that handed Verstappen the title last year. When put like this it’s very hard to see that the FIA wanted to ensure he won the title. 

I'm not sure I agree with all of these examples tbf. In real time I thought Imola was fine, if in retrospect right on the limit for a slippery track, and that Silverstone was on balance more Hamilton's fault than Max's. Monza is also something other teams have done before - effectively neutralise a grid drop by taking the engine penalty on top (Renault took an engine penalty with Hulkenberg on top of a penalty given for wiping out Alonso and Leclerc at Belgium 2018, for example).

There's an easy recency bias tbf as in the last 4 races, the officiating really jumped the shark. Consistency was a complaint in 2019 and 2020 as well, so it's a long running problem, and it was also litigated following an aggressive use of penalties in Austria on multiple drivers compared to other races, but in Brazil onwards, there were just some poor decisions.

[Ozanne]

23 hours ago, charlierc said:

 

I'm not sure I agree with all of these examples tbf. In real time I thought Imola was fine, if in retrospect right on the limit for a slippery track, and that Silverstone was on balance more Hamilton's fault than Max's. Monza is also something other teams have done before - effectively neutralise a grid drop by taking the engine penalty on top (Renault took an engine penalty with Hulkenberg on top of a penalty given for wiping out Alonso and Leclerc at Belgium 2018, for example).

There's an easy recency bias tbf as in the last 4 races, the officiating really jumped the shark. Consistency was a complaint in 2019 and 2020 as well, so it's a long running problem, and it was also litigated following an aggressive use of penalties in Austria on multiple drivers compared to other races, but in Brazil onwards, there were just some poor decisions.

Sorry man but I disagree. At Silverstone, Hamilton went for an opening that was clearly there and Verstappen knowing he was there still drove into him. That's the problem with MV, he will look to drive into someone so it's on the other driver to move and every time drivers back down to him because of that whereas this time Hamilton didn't.

MV should've faced a multi-race ban after Monza for nearly causing serious harm and appalling sportsman ship when he walked away from Hamilton without checking he was ok (he did something else too which I can't quite remember - dodgy radio message essentially admitting he wanted to crash?) He gets the ban which he never serves then luck comes into play again for him and it rains in Russia.

Then the litany of decisions at the end of the season combined with the WWE style finish in Abu Dhabi only lead me to conclude that the FIA wanted MV as World Champion. 

[charlierc]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

Sorry man but I disagree. At Silverstone, Hamilton went for an opening that was clearly there and Verstappen knowing he was there still drove into him. That's the problem with MV, he will look to drive into someone so it's on the other driver to move and every time drivers back down to him because of that whereas this time Hamilton didn't.

MV should've faced a multi-race ban after Monza for nearly causing serious harm and appalling sportsman ship when he walked away from Hamilton without checking he was ok (he did something else too which I can't quite remember - dodgy radio message essentially admitting he wanted to crash?) He gets the ban which he never serves then luck comes into play again for him and it rains in Russia.

Then the litany of decisions at the end of the season combined with the WWE style finish in Abu Dhabi only lead me to conclude that the FIA wanted MV as World Champion. 

It's perfectly reasonable to disagree tbf (I'm not about to send this into the gutter like F1 Twitter did a lot in 2021). I do agree the handling of the last 4 races in general were pretty terrible. Saudi Arabia was imo the worst as that was pretty poorly officiated, but there were moments in Brazil, Qatar and Abu Dhabi (even before the final lap which does deserve criticising) that did have me scratching my head.

I thought Monza was as much a fault of track design - in retrospect, the design of that chicane means that crash could've happened before 2021, though was perhaps likelier to happen with these two personalities and in that circumstance as Verstappen had an incentive to go for it. I also think Verstappen could feel Hamilton trying to reverse his beached Mercedes out from under the Red Bull while he was getting out of it, so he probably knew he was OK, even if it wasn't an amazing look. I do agree that was a crash that got far too close for comfort, and I'm not sure the safety ramifications got the airing they probably warranted.

Silverstone, you could argue the penalty is as much penalising the consequence that it put a driver out the race as it did the incident. But if you're gonna penalise either driver, it's probably Hamilton imo. I don't think it warranted a more severe penalty, as Red Bull spent the following 2 weeks bellyaching about as I think Verstappen could've left a little more room, but he had the lead and racing line.

Ultimately such was the closeness that any factor was going to be decisive. Even with all this, Hamilton would've won the title had he not screwed up the Baku restart, or indeed Verstappen would've had a more comfortable lead had the tyre not blown up just before that. It's more just infuriating for all that it's effectively the referees making themselves the story, most probably more by incompetence than conspiracy imo.

Edited January 28, 2022 by charlierc

[charlierc]

Few early wires about what they might be up to with the Abu Dhabi review...

Michael Masi: FIA may end spell as race director after Abu Dhabi controversy - BBC Sport

FIA planning new F1 race-management structure after Abu Dhabi controversy - BBC Sport

Imo I think replacing Masi might be tricky as I guess it depends on who's available. Equally, his credibility for the job has unquestionably taken a colossal kicking and I'm not sure how confident you can be if he's still in the same structure that brought us the Abu Dhabi ending. It's absolutely too big a job for one person, especially if they're gonna go rogue as we saw.

[Ozanne]

On 1/28/2022 at 8:49 PM, charlierc said:

It's perfectly reasonable to disagree tbf (I'm not about to send this into the gutter like F1 Twitter did a lot in 2021). I do agree the handling of the last 4 races in general were pretty terrible. Saudi Arabia was imo the worst as that was pretty poorly officiated, but there were moments in Brazil, Qatar and Abu Dhabi (even before the final lap which does deserve criticising) that did have me scratching my head.

I thought Monza was as much a fault of track design - in retrospect, the design of that chicane means that crash could've happened before 2021, though was perhaps likelier to happen with these two personalities and in that circumstance as Verstappen had an incentive to go for it. I also think Verstappen could feel Hamilton trying to reverse his beached Mercedes out from under the Red Bull while he was getting out of it, so he probably knew he was OK, even if it wasn't an amazing look. I do agree that was a crash that got far too close for comfort, and I'm not sure the safety ramifications got the airing they probably warranted.

Silverstone, you could argue the penalty is as much penalising the consequence that it put a driver out the race as it did the incident. But if you're gonna penalise either driver, it's probably Hamilton imo. I don't think it warranted a more severe penalty, as Red Bull spent the following 2 weeks bellyaching about as I think Verstappen could've left a little more room, but he had the lead and racing line.

Ultimately such was the closeness that any factor was going to be decisive. Even with all this, Hamilton would've won the title had he not screwed up the Baku restart, or indeed Verstappen would've had a more comfortable lead had the tyre not blown up just before that. It's more just infuriating for all that it's effectively the referees making themselves the story, most probably more by incompetence than conspiracy imo.

I made the mistake towards the end of last season going into F1 reddit, thats was a big mistake.

The Brazil one was one of the most blatant for me, the on board of MV mysteriously doesn't appear for days, then when it does and shows MV steering towards LH and the FIA block the Mercedes appeal. I agree with Saudi Arabia, that was a mess, MV should've faced a more severe punishment but they didn't want to penalise him enough so that he was behind LH going into the finale (which meant if they came together LH won the title).

The whole chain of events in Abu Dhabi still makes me feel sick, I will never forget that. The whole stinks how they Masi can go from 'All drivers will have to pass' too ' Only the 5 in between LH and MV will pass' will stick with me forever. The fact that they had MV going ahead of Lewis under the SC, his blatant defensive tactics of moving across the road multiple times when he was ahead and ignored them all sums up that they blatantly wanted MV to be World Champion.

What's the point in the whole season when they can just ignore their own rules multiple times to ensure they get the Champion they want?

Edited January 30, 2022 by Ozanne

[Ozanne]

As good evidence as you’ll see/hear that Max Verstappen was awarded the title due to RB colluding with the FIA.

[squirrelarmy]

The first necessary step in righting the wrongs of last season has been made. 
 

Masi has finally got the boot. No news of who is replacing him though. If it’s another Liberty Media stooge though I still won’t be watching. 

[squirrelarmy]

Looking it to it a little more and it seems one of the new race directors joined DTM as a race director last season which had its own final race stewarding drama. 
 

For those who like a conspiracy, the company that owns the TV rights to DTM is owned by Red Bull. 
 

One other change for F1 is that conversations between teams and the Race directors won’t be broadcast. Doesn’t mean that they won’t be going on though. 
 

That’s solidified my decision not to be watching any time soon. 

[DareToDibble]

This years Ferrari is a stunner. Hopefully it's competitive. I know they say new regulations should mix things up a bit but can't help but feel it'll be the same as always with Merc and Red Bull at the front with the rest in a midfield battle.

[Ozanne]

5 hours ago, squirrelarmy said:

The first necessary step in righting the wrongs of last season has been made. 
 

Masi has finally got the boot. No news of who is replacing him though. If it’s another Liberty Media stooge though I still won’t be watching. 

Firing Masi is an admittance that the rules weren't followed in Abu Dhabi and is essentially an admittance that Max Verstappen's World Title isn't legitimate. If they were completely serious they would apologise to Lewis Hamilton and strip Verstappen of the title.

[DareToDibble]

C’mon now. VAR have come out numerous times and said the refs/VAR assistant got decisions wrong but they don’t change the result of the match. 

I get the disappointment of what happened but it’s time to move on and get excited for the new season. 

[Ozanne]

I doubt any of those officials in charge of VAR had a member of one of the teams tell them exactly what they need to do then the official carries out those actions to the letter just seconds later.

I can't get excited after that ending, I've never seen anything like it.

[DareToDibble]

10 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I doubt any of those officials in charge of VAR had a member of one of the teams tell them exactly what they need to do then the official carries out those actions to the letter just seconds later.

I can't get excited after that ending, I've never seen anything like it.

I’m not disputing things weren’t wrong, they definitely were. But Toto was in Masi’s ear earlier in the race asking him not to bring out a safety car. The difference is when Horner did it it had a bigger impact on the result as it was about 2 laps from the end. Other than for actual safety reasons I don’t think anyone should be able to speak to the race director.

 

[Ozanne]

28 minutes ago, DareToDibble said:

I’m not disputing things weren’t wrong, they definitely were. But Toto was in Masi’s ear earlier in the race asking him not to bring out a safety car. The difference is when Horner did it it had a bigger impact on the result as it was about 2 laps from the end. Other than for actual safety reasons I don’t think anyone should be able to speak to the race director.

 

Toto asked for the Safety Car not to be used in a situation that didn’t need a safety car. The use of the Safety Car is clearly in the hands of the RD. Wheatley lobbied the way the SC was used to control the competitor order and go against the regulations for how/when a SC should come in.

[Hugh Mungus]

What you think of the new merc @Somto Unigwe Raphael?

[Somto Unigwe Raphael]

13 minutes ago, Hugh Mungus said:

What you think of the new merc @Somto Unigwe Raphael?

Prefer Mercedes Marxist.

[charlierc]

I mean, think we can agree Michael Masi's position was untenable. It's curious that he was being primed as Whiting's successor so ironically would've been one of the most experienced contenders had somebody else got it wrong.

But yeah. The standard of officiating for a lot of key incidents in 2020 and 2021 was pretty dreadful even without Masi's mismanagement of the Abu Dhabi safety car, and that high-profile incident has been a significant hurdle. So Masi going isn't surprising. Part of me did ponder if they might try a fudge that keeps him in charge, but I guess the team's wouldn't have been enamoured by that.

[DareToDibble]

I'm sure there are reasons for this but is there any reason they couldn't have an ex-driver as Race Director? They have them as stewards. Granted there is a lot more responsibility but they've tried the normal method and that didn't exactly work as they'd hoped.

[Crazyfool01]

On 2/18/2022 at 6:47 PM, DareToDibble said:

I'm sure there are reasons for this but is there any reason they couldn't have an ex-driver as Race Director? They have them as stewards. Granted there is a lot more responsibility but they've tried the normal method and that didn't exactly work as they'd hoped.

would they be totally unbiased ... it would be easy for some to make claims they were favouring a former team ... or even going the other way to not show bias ... it would be a tough job .. imagine the people on here calling conspiracies if that were the case 

Edited February 20, 2022 by crazyfool1

[squirrelarmy]

Mildly amusing twitter thread:

 

[charlierc]

Things seem to be moving surprisingly fast on the Russia stuff after recent events. Haas look to have dropped Uralkali and their Russia flag colour scheme, both Vettel and Verstappen have publicly voiced discomfort about going (with Vettel outright saying he'll boycott) and someone even spotted the F1 website listing tickets for a 2022 Turkish GP but not a Russia one.

By comparison I think Bernie would've made them go given he's quoted as having a fondness for Putin.

[DareToDibble]

I know we shouldn't read too much into testing but everyone seems to think Ferrari are leading the way. George Russell has said something like "The red car is very quick, as is the orange one".

Would love it if Ferrari and McLaren were at the front but still convinced it'll be Mercedes and Red Bull at the front come the first race.

[charlierc]

On 2/28/2022 at 11:20 AM, DareToDibble said:

I know we shouldn't read too much into testing but everyone seems to think Ferrari are leading the way. George Russell has said something like "The red car is very quick, as is the orange one".

Would love it if Ferrari and McLaren were at the front but still convinced it'll be Mercedes and Red Bull at the front come the first race.

I'd like to think we won't get a situation like 2009 or 2014 after those respective rule changes saw the first few rounds cleaned up by 1 team.

[DareToDibble]

11 minutes ago, charlierc said:

I'd like to think we won't get a situation like 2009 or 2014 after those respective rule changes saw the first few rounds cleaned up by 1 team.

Yeah I agree. Although I did thoroughly enjoy Button winning every race 😅