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Are Tories welcome at Glastonbury

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16 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Germany has never under-invested in roads, rail and, yes, cycle paths.

Germany has recently started using PFIs for funding roads (new & upgrades).

</useless fact>

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15 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Germany has recently started using PFIs for funding roads (new & upgrades).

</useless fact>

PFI isn’t a problem in itself. Far from it. We made the mistake here of lumping capital and revenue spending together into single contracts. And we didn’t transfer enough financial risk onto private sector partners. 

You just know Germany will do it right. 

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2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

there's always hard choices to be made when there's limited resources - but by your method, the cycle lane would never happen because there's always something more important.

And yet if it had been done (say) 20 years ago, that extra 20 years benefit would have had a significant effect on society, thru less imported oil, less traffic, fewer fumes, and better fitness. And the 'less imported oil' would have freed up money to be spent somewhere else in the economy, perhaps on school books.

So I'm glad that even in the hardest of times those in control are able to see a bigger picture than immediate need - else we'd never really get any improvements in society. Investment projects with clear benefits are important.

So by your logic it's more important to have cycle paths(which are rarely used) then kids getting the best education and resources they can? So what happens to this generation of kids in say 20yesrs time. Like I said it's always going to be subjective. Also as well when they add the cycle paths they usually either increase the road size itself or the road size stays the same so it's not really cutting done on congestion as such just offering an alternative route.

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56 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Germany has never under-invested in roads, rail and, yes, cycle paths. As a country there is absolute consensus that not spending in those areas is a false economy. As a result they have embarrassingly better roads, bridges, railways, airports, cycle routes- you name it, it’s better - and they have a better performing (and resolute)!economy, partly as a result of that investment. It’s not an ‘either/or’ question most of the time; it’s ‘how do we maximise long term growth and what do we do with the fruits of that growth?’

 

I ain't gonna argue against Germany's infrastructure,personally I think they have an excellent work ethic and that's why they do so well 

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3 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

I ain't gonna argue against Germany's infrastructure,personally I think they have an excellent work ethic and that's why they do so well 

They have also had a consensus of political opinion on the value of long term investment since the war. The ‘books v cycle paths’ debate wouldn’t happen there- it’s apples and oranges to them. It does happen here - as you have proved- mainly because that’s what our politicians have made us believe for so long. In fact, they have probably succeeded in making us think that those are ‘choices’. They aren’t obviously. 

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8 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

So by your logic it's more important to have cycle paths(which are rarely used) then kids getting the best education and resources they can?

nope, it's a balance - but it's always a balance, even in more-wealthy times. There's always more we could do towards kids to improve their education, after all.

 

8 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

So what happens to this generation of kids in say 20yesrs time. Like I said it's always going to be subjective. Also as well when they add the cycle paths they usually either increase the road size itself or the road size stays the same so it's not really cutting done on congestion as such just offering an alternative route.

There's currently lots of problems in lots of areas, but it's also the case that many things aren't as bad as they've been in the not-to-distant past. For example it's not many decades since it was fairly common for schools to have leaking roofs because of under investment. Thankfully that sort of problem doesn't seem to be too much of a current problem.

And what fixed those leaking roofs? Money which might have been spent on books, which were also needed at the time. On balance the investment in the roof was felt to be more worthwhile.

The problem isn't cycle paths. The problem is too low a level of taxes (on all of us, not just 'the rich') and the consequence is too little to spend on the things which are worthwhile doing.

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32 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

You just know Germany will do it right. 

When you get a moment, Google "berlin brandenburg airport"

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12 minutes ago, incident said:

When you get a moment, Google "berlin brandenburg airport"

The exception that proves the rule or something.....?

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12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

nope, it's a balance - but it's always a balance, even in more-wealthy times. There's always more we could do towards kids to improve their education, after all.

 

There's currently lots of problems in lots of areas, but it's also the case that many things aren't as bad as they've been in the not-to-distant past. For example it's not many decades since it was fairly common for schools to have leaking roofs because of under investment. Thankfully that sort of problem doesn't seem to be too much of a current problem.

And what fixed those leaking roofs? Money which might have been spent on books, which were also needed at the time. On balance the investment in the roof was felt to be more worthwhile.

The problem isn't cycle paths. The problem is too low a level of taxes (on all of us, not just 'the rich') and the consequence is too little to spend on the things which are worthwhile doing.

Like I said all along its subjective if you think it's being spent right and of course I know it's a balancing act but I just think that some things should always take priority. Also I don't think its entirely a case of underfunding more a mismanagement of funds by the schools,hospitals etc themselves

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22 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

They have also had a consensus of political opinion on the value of long term investment since the war. The ‘books v cycle paths’ debate wouldn’t happen there- it’s apples and oranges to them. It does happen here - as you have proved- mainly because that’s what our politicians have made us believe for so long. In fact, they have probably succeeded in making us think that those are ‘choices’. They aren’t obviously. 

Tbh I don't want to be drawn into a debate why Germany is better,my opinion is that's because they in general have stronger work effort then us, things simply get done quicker and better.

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5 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

Like I said all along its subjective if you think it's being spent right and of course I know it's a balancing act but I just think that some things should always take priority. Also I don't think its entirely a case of underfunding more a mismanagement of funds by the schools,hospitals etc themselves

I partly agree in terms of hospital funding. Some of the management at mine is clearly poor - doesn’t feel like funding issues, just a lack of focus on quality. In general terms though, disagree hugely on schools. They are dealt a really bum hand in this country. 

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9 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

The exception that proves the rule or something.....?

There is no rule. At least, not one that matches your preconceptions.

Germans are shouting just as loudly as we are about inefficiency, screw ups, etc. And in some cases with good reason - the new Berlin Airport is an international joke, and it's been quite a while since any UK projects were screwed up so comprehensively on such a large scale. But it's far from the only example.

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7 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

Like I said all along its subjective if you think it's being spent right and of course I know it's a balancing act but I just think that some things should always take priority.

If you don't make investments to get future benefits, it ends up getting forever harder to pay for the priority things.

Think of it a bit like renting versus a mortgage. You might pay a bit less in rent than on a mortgage each year but it ends up costing more to rent than to buy. Good investments pay for themselves!

 

7 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

Also I don't think its entirely a case of underfunding more a mismanagement of funds by the schools,hospitals etc themselves

Schools have had massive cuts in funding, at a time of generational peak in numbers at school.

While the money for the NHS has increased, it's increased at a far slower rate in recent years than it has as an average over its history - while cuts in other areas (eg: council run care services) have added an extra load to what the NHS tries to do.

(for example, last year both my parents ended up in hospital for 10 days, because the council couldn't provide the far-cheaper care my father needed if he was to remain at home by himself - utterly stupid, and a greater cost overall).

How can doing the same or more with less be bad management? The problem is clearly the funding.

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7 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

I partly agree in terms of hospital funding. Some of the management at mine is clearly poor - doesn’t feel like funding issues, just a lack of focus on quality. In general terms though, disagree hugely on schools. They are dealt a really bum hand in this country. 

I'll use my wife's job as a nurse as an example of funding mismanagement. Her hospital has just spent a crazy amount of money on refurbishing her department but not on treatment bays or things will actually benefit the patient but on ipads and 60in tv screens which play advertising or a sculpture for the grounds(I will include figures after I spoken to and clarify with wife) where as to me it would be better to use that money to fund the medicine or treatments people need. 

Schools I do think get a crap deal,seems ever week I'm getting letters home asking for donations for something,however in my kids school all the kids have a tablet provided to them but can't afford to buy textbooks or pencils.

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On 10/30/2018 at 1:14 PM, clarkete said:

I'm not happy when it's used to pay for questionable capital projects like Hinkley, HS2, aircraft carriers without planes, things that seem to be as much a political statement as anything else.  Usually our capital projects cost much more than their original estimates.

That's just perspective though. Like to me, the need for HS2 is absolutely obvious, because I get a commuter trains between midlands and Birmingham once every couple of weeks, have done for the past 8 years, and have seen how those trains have slowly but surely got more and more crowded, the stop-gap of adding the odd extra carriage not even keeping up. That line is going to be beyond capacity before HS2 finishes but... 

HS2 itself isn't the point, it's that we have different perspectives and I would agree with you on the aircraft carriers but someone else can probably tell me why I'd be wrong.

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9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

If you don't make investments to get future benefits, it ends up getting forever harder to pay for the priority things.

Think of it a bit like renting versus a mortgage. You might pay a bit less in rent than on a mortgage each year but it ends up costing more to rent than to buy. Good investments pay for themselves!

 

Schools have had massive cuts in funding, at a time of generational peak in numbers at school.

While the money for the NHS has increased, it's increased at a far slower rate in recent years than it has as an average over its history - while cuts in other areas (eg: council run care services) have added an extra load to what the NHS tries to do.

(for example, last year both my parents ended up in hospital for 10 days, because the council couldn't provide the far-cheaper care my father needed if he was to remain at home by himself - utterly stupid, and a greater cost overall).

How can doing the same or more with less be bad management? The problem is clearly the funding.

I totally agree that you have to invest in the future but I don't agree with how you decide what's more important to invest in.

Also as a side note I hope your parents are better now and got the care they needed.

I do speak sadly from experience when I say I think some trusts of the nhs spend their budget stupidly because unfortunately my mother was refused cancer treatment because of funding(doctors actual words were too expensive) yet 2 weeks before the trust had invested x amount into a new car park

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8 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

I would agree with you on the aircraft carriers but someone else can probably tell me why I'd be wrong.

I agree with you on that too .... but the expense can't be avoided, ultimately. We're committed to spending 2% on defence because of being a NATO member, and if it wasn't an aircraft carrier it would be spent on something else.

If lower defence spending is wanted, the convo needs to be about whether we should be in NATO.

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7 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

I totally agree that you have to invest in the future but I don't agree with how you decide what's more important to invest in.

we all have our different ideas.

Hopefully, via the democratic process a reasonable number of all ideas gets addressed - both ones we'd personally support, as well as the ones we wouldn't but others would. Hopefully, that comes out at something around a fair balance in the spread.

Personally I don't think we're wildly off the mark with what gets funded, but we are trying to do too much with too little. Either we need to find more funds or we agree to do even less - and you've been able to recognise that there is worthwhile value from longer-term investments, so I don't think 'less' is ultimately agreeable with even you.

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2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

we all have our different ideas.

Hopefully, via the democratic process a reasonable number of all ideas gets addressed - both ones we'd personally support, as well as the ones we wouldn't but others would. Hopefully, that comes out at something around a fair balance in the spread.

Personally I don't think we're wildly off the mark with what gets funded, but we are trying to do too much with too little. Either we need to find more funds or we agree to do even less - and you've been able to recognise that there is worthwhile value from longer-term investments, so I don't think 'less' is ultimately agreeable with even you.

This I wholeheartedly agree with and I think it's great that we can share different opinions and hopefully find a middle ground

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20 hours ago, glastolover19 said:

You are right there is no correlation between working hard and pay,I'm only speaking for myself and my work but the guy in my place who packs 20 pallets is getting paid the same as the guy who only goes 5,yeah it's not fair but unfortunately the way pay systems work now is there no incentive to work a bit harder anymore.

Like I said somewhere else on this thread where your taxes go and how they are spent is very subjective but I certainly don't feel my community or local area has improved if anything I feel it's actually declined. 

I totally agree that no person in ft employment should need to rely on welfare and the basic wage should be a good few quid higher then it is.

As for subsidizing businesses,yes I don't think it's right but on the other hand what happens if you don't? Ultimately it will end up with more people unemployed. I do believe that everyone should pay the same level of tax wether rich or poor,to me that's fair.

I think education and health care should get extra however I do think that the way the money is used once the have it should be looked into because I do think a lot is wasted or not getting to where it's needed. 

As for local areas, stories like this were fairly common soon after the Brexit vote - Cornwall issues plea to keep EU funding after voting for Brexit. Bit of a facepalm moment, but what do you do. 

We've bailed out enough businesses, we may as well be making our own. I'd go to a government owned supermarket, use a government owned transport system, government owned bank etc. I do think a tiered tax system is right though, I'm a firm believer in from each according to their ability to each according to their needs. This tax cut is gonna save me £3 a week and I don't think that's enough worth giving a shit about. Course, further up, what would be a lot of money to us is fuck all to other people and they're going to miss it far less than other people, communities and services need it. When we get up to the super rich, I think it's silly for anyone to begrudge paying the appropriate level of tax to invest in a system that has either helped them get or stay rich. 

Totally agree that education and health should be getting more. I work in the NHS and we're understaffed and underesourced. Year on year, the government claims they're spending record amounts on the NHS while proportionately, they're spending less than Thatcher did despite the increase in number and age of population since her leadership. Well, increase in age has started to address itself, life expectancy has stagnated and even gone into reverse in areas particularly hard hit by austerity.. Yet in my role, I still see so much waste. We're often asked for suggestions on how to save money and I'm always there with a list but nothing ever happens. It infuriates me.

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https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/16/uk-austerity-has-inflicted-great-misery-on-citizens-un-says?CMP=fb_gu&fbclid=IwAR0HEAdK27zpCAQvQNr0QiTbMEq_f8m7hqoKJ9C6tuiOfisilrzvJsW9MgA

That well known left wing tyranny, the United Nations, has had its say on this topic. Apparently everyone except Trump and that new Brazilian guy voted for section 4, paragraph 2(ii) viz: ‘and it is the opinion of this place that Tories can fuck right off when it comes to Glastonbury.’......

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I'm telling you now in no uncertain terms that Conservative politicians are by and large complete and utter w*nkers and imbeciles. My complete hatred of these bastards is now reaching fever pitch. Maybe it's because I work closely with vulnerable and impoverished people on a daily basis. Maybe it's because I have watched a Conservative Councillor trying regularly to undo and subvert all the good work that my own Labour dominated Community Council performs. Maybe it's because I subscribe to The Times and can get behind the paywall and see exactly what Tories think of those that are not living an affluent middle class lifestyle by reading their snide and vicious comments. Whatever it is, I am going to do everything in my power to fuck them up. until the day I die. JC4PM.

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1 hour ago, Martin Ashford said:

I'm telling you now in no uncertain terms that Conservative politicians are by and large complete and utter w*nkers and imbeciles. My complete hatred of these bastards is now reaching fever pitch. Maybe it's because I work closely with vulnerable and impoverished people on a daily basis. Maybe it's because I have watched a Conservative Councillor trying regularly to undo and subvert all the good work that my own Labour dominated Community Council performs. Maybe it's because I subscribe to The Times and can get behind the paywall and see exactly what Tories think of those that are not living an affluent middle class lifestyle by reading their snide and vicious comments. Whatever it is, I am going to do everything in my power to fuck them up. until the day I die. JC4PM.

Sir, I salute you. 

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