Are Tories welcome at Glastonbury

[CaledonianGonzo]

1 hour ago, UEF said:

There's no right wing equivalent of no-platforming, twitter pitchfork mobs, gobbing on Conservative party members as they walk to Conference, etc...

Or how about on the Guardian where 'difficult' topics have the commenting turned off?

Utter waffle

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, clarkete said:

The amount and ferocity of bile I see from right to left can be pretty overwhelming, especially given what happened to Jo Cox.

stuff like this used to go in one direction only.

Nowadays it's going both ways, and I'm far from sure that takes us to a better place.

[Quark]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

stuff like this used to go in one direction only.

Nowadays it's going both ways, and I'm far from sure that takes us to a better place.

It doesn't. It won't. It makes everything shittier. I find the "kill all tories and anyone that votes for them" mentality as repulsive as the Daily Heil's "enemies of the people" and tales of how we all want to turn the UK into Stalinist Russia.

Grey areas and nuance are being swept away (further away?) by populism.

[RichardWaller]

1 hour ago, clarkete said:

Indeed, it's disgraceful how many front pages  there have been on various papers in the last two years accusing people of being traitors, whether they are MPs, members of the Lords or whatever.

The amount and ferocity of bile I see from right to left can be pretty overwhelming, especially given what happened to Jo Cox.

Unfortunately there has been a rise of bile in the left too, I can’t deny that. Nothing that comes close to murder though yeah...

[Rose-Colored Boy]

10 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Unfortunately there has been a rise of bile in the left too, I can’t deny that. Nothing that comes close to murder though yeah...

It’s entirely believable that one of the obsessives on the left could do to a ‘Blairite’ or someone like Iain Duncan Smith exactly what Thomas Mair did, though. It’s a very very bleak moment in the history of British politics, and I can’t wait for it to be over.

[Mr.Tease]

26 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Unfortunately there has been a rise of bile in the left too, I can’t deny that. Nothing that comes close to murder though yeah...

I don't think there has--look the 1980s, there was a lot of bile (and understandly so) by the left vs the tories (I say that as a left winger) then too. I think social media just means there's more of an outlet and medium for it to be seen. 

I think people also underestimate how brutal austerity has been--I work as a counsellor and the impact on mental health resulting in destitution and suicidal despair on some of the most vulnerable people has been horrific over the years. If you work in the public sector or the NHS, conditions are getting worse and worse with so many staff going on long term sickness. I get why people are venomous, but I also think it was similar in the 80s because again things were desperate. 

[Mr.Tease]

29 minutes ago, Rose-Colored Boy said:

It’s entirely believable that one of the obsessives on the left could do to a ‘Blairite’ or someone like Iain Duncan Smith exactly what Thomas Mair did, though. It’s a very very bleak moment in the history of British politics, and I can’t wait for it to be over.

Nope, I don't think it is- there's no murderous rage against Blairites it's, just frustration, mistrust and contempt- it's more ridicule-y than violent. 

Honestly, the way the 'far' left are portrayed in the media is daft--go to any momentum meeting and it's mainly public sector workers, vegetarians, teachers, nurses, people with disabilities etc--basically people who have been on the front line of the cuts

I think the main problem at the moment is there has been a complete breakdown in trust between most factions in politics and with different types of media. MSM doesn't trust social media and vice versa, Corbyn supporters are convinced blairites will side with the tories, centrists are convinced the left will vanquish them, and then you have a similar thing with the tories, then you have brexit supporters convinced their going to be sold out, etc etc. Has then left each faction trying to vanquish the other because they think the other is going to try and vanquish them. Kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Mr.Tease

[RichardWaller]

28 minutes ago, Rose-Colored Boy said:

It’s entirely believable that one of the obsessives on the left could do to a ‘Blairite’ or someone like Iain Duncan Smith exactly what Thomas Mair did, though. It’s a very very bleak moment in the history of British politics, and I can’t wait for it to be over.

Obviously hope not, but yeah wouldn’t want to say it won’t happen. It’s an awful time politically, totally agree. Can’t really see an end to it, to be honest. Brexit has well and truly fractured us, whether it actually happens or not there’s a lot of resentment on both sides.

13 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

I don't think there has--look the 1980s, there was a lot of bile (and understandly so) by the left vs the tories (I say that as a left winger) then too. I think social media just means there's more of an outlet and medium for it to be seen. 

I think people also underestimate how brutal austerity has been--I work as a counsellor and the impact on mental health resulting in destitution and suicidal despair on some of the most vulnerable people has been horrific over the years. If you work in the public sector or the NHS, conditions are getting worse and worse with so many staff going on long term sickness. I get why people are venomous, but I also think it was similar in the 80s because again things were desperate. 

Ah can barely remember the 80s meself but aye, good point about social media, the outlets there, everything’s a bit more in your face than it must’ve been without, especially when people can hide behind a pseudonym online and say how they really feel. 

I work in the NHS and I’ve been seeing the impact of austerity both on ourselves and our patients. Depressing as fuck.

[Rose-Colored Boy]

24 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Nope, I don't think it is- there's no murderous rage against Blairites it's, just frustration, mistrust and contempt- it's more ridicule-y than violent. 

Honestly, the way the 'far' left are portrayed in the media is daft--go to any momentum meeting and it's mainly public sector workers, vegetarians, teachers, nurses, people with disabilities etc--basically people who have been on the front line of the cuts

I don't doubt rational people make up the majority but there are definitely some worrying sorts, for various reasons I've come into contact with quite a few of them myself and I would be extremely concerned if I was any of the MPs typically targeted by The Canary etc. You speak to certain sections of the movement and there is no nuance there, no recognition of the people underneath the political differences, nothing except a totally binary view of certain MPs as either pro-Corbyn or not worthy of being in public life. Much the same as there are a certain proportion of Brexit supporters who see high-profile MPs as either firmly 'on their side' or otherwise just scum.

You alluded to it yourself 10 minutes ago, the cuts which have driven the anti-austerity movement have affected mental health support more than perhaps anything else - if someone is really struggling and their support network has been taken away then what is stopping them being pushed to the extreme scenario? And obviously in that instance, the people perceived - whether rightly or wrongly - as having taken away said support network are usually going to be the first people who come to mind. And when the rhetoric around those people is so black and white, with Skwawkbox pumping out more and more dehumanising shite every day..

Anyway that's more than enough discussion of that particular scenario, I think.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Rose-Colored Boy

[Mr.Tease]

11 minutes ago, Rose-Colored Boy said:

I don't doubt rational people make up the majority but there are definitely some worrying sorts, for various reasons I've come into contact with quite a few of them myself and I would be extremely concerned if I was any of the MPs typically targeted by The Canary etc. You speak to certain sections of the movement and there is no nuance there, no recognition of the people underneath the political differences, nothing except a totally binary view of certain MPs as either pro-Corbyn or not worthy of being in public life. Much the same as there are a certain proportion of Brexit supporters who see high-profile MPs as either firmly 'on their side' or otherwise just scum.

You alluded to it yourself 10 minutes ago, the cuts which have driven the anti-austerity movement have affected mental health support more than perhaps anything else - if someone is really struggling and their support network has been taken away then what is stopping them being pushed to the extreme scenario? And obviously in that instance, the people perceived - whether rightly or wrongly - as having taken away said support network are usually going to be the first people who come to mind. And when the rhetoric around those people is so black and white, with Skwawkbox pumping out more and more dehumanising shite every day..

Anyway that's more than enough discussion of that particular scenario, I think.

As anyone who struggles with their mental health (as I have) will tell you, when in crisis you are infinitely more likely to take it out on yourself than other people, so no I don't think they're a threat to kill a blairite (not sure why they'd blame a blairite anyways). 

And to be fair the abuse goes both ways--the same mps who complain about the canary and SKWAWKBOX are the same people who have chucked abuse at Corbyn supporters (dogs, idiots, extremists, nazis etc etc),until both sides acknowledge that they can be and are abusive to the other, we'll just carry on this self destructive dance that benefits no one. 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

1 hour ago, RichardWaller said:

Unfortunately there has been a rise of bile in the left too, I can’t deny that. Nothing that comes close to murder though yeah...

Yeah it's a shame. I used to call myself a Leftie but the rise of Antifa and all the violence they commit - esp on people who they claim are Nazis and clearly not - has left me a bit lost on the spectrum. Some of the protests they police, beatings, community damage etc is quite alarming. No murder yet, but some seriously close calls, people getting hit in the head with bike locks and the like, just for being conservative. It never gets mentioned in the left leaning press tho, suppose it doesn't fit the narratvive.

 

[RichardWaller]

48 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Yeah it's a shame. I used to call myself a Leftie but the rise of Antifa and all the violence they commit - esp on people who they claim are Nazis and clearly not - has left me a bit lost on the spectrum. Some of the protests they police, beatings, community damage etc is quite alarming. No murder yet, but some seriously close calls, people getting hit in the head with bike locks and the like, just for being conservative. It never gets mentioned in the left leaning press tho, suppose it doesn't fit the narratvive.

 

Ah ran out of upvotes for the day, shame.

Yeah, I’ll still call myself a Leftie, haven’t got a violent bone in my body. Ah politics is a fucking mess eh, my moderate is someone else’s extreme and visa versa. In pub and signing out of this thread for the night, drinking and despairing at politics isn’t the best mix!

[Mash011]

BOY am I glad this thread's back!

Answer's still no, btw.

[priest17]

The whole left/right spectrums on the way out anyway, brexit and the like has changed everything. Politics can't keep up and change alongside the internet fast enough. There's no actual answers for anyone anymore, people barely know what to even ask anymore. It's all going to shit.

So it's great that there's a place people can pitch up some gentle left ideas in a relaxed place in their own way. If people disagree where better than a place with a hella good vibe you can chat about it over a few tinnies. This conversations barely worth having coz that idea seems so farfetched with winter drawing in and the last festival so long ago.

[Mash011]

7 hours ago, glastolover19 said:

But then again would you actually listen or just shout them down for not agreeing with you?

Yes agreed, I bet the fuck the nhs hitler moustache white supremacist group of drunk students have some really good ideas if only the """tolerant""" left would let them speak.

[the wonderwhy]

7 hours ago, glastolover19 said:

But then again would you actually listen or just shout them down for not agreeing with you?

Considering that, at conference, young tories were suggesting policies like 'public hanging' and 'Scramble for Africa 2.0' to attract under 30's to the party, I'd wager they're probably not worth bothering to listen to. 

[glastolover19]

57 minutes ago, Mash011 said:

Yes agreed, I bet the fuck the nhs hitler moustache white supremacist group of drunk students have some really good ideas if only the """tolerant""" left would let them speak.

I didn't say they had good ideas and based solely on that 1 picture I would say they haven't but I'd be tolerant enough to say"hey why do you feel like that" then discuss it and try to understand and also see it from each other pov. They might walk away and think actually I see it differently now. You can't change anything unless you're prepared to talk and engage

[glastolover19]

20 minutes ago, the wonderwhy said:

Considering that, at conference, young tories were suggesting policies like 'public hanging' and 'Scramble for Africa 2.0' to attract under 30's to the party, I'd wager they're probably not worth bothering to listen to. 

Maybe so but maybe by talking with them and understand their motivations and explain yours,they might decide you were worth listening to and take it on board

[Mash011]

7 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

I didn't say they had good ideas and based solely on that 1 picture I would say they haven't but I'd be tolerant enough to say"hey why do you feel like that" then discuss it and try to understand and also see it from each other pov. They might walk away and think actually I see it differently now. You can't change anything unless you're prepared to talk and engage

did you even look at the photo we're talking about? how the fuck are you supposed to 'engage' with a gaggle of young tories literally covered in racist symbols whose political beliefs extend as far as 'fuck the NHS'? those people weren't even welcome at their university

Edited October 9, 2018 by Mash011

[glastolover19]

43 minutes ago, Mash011 said:

did you even look at the photo we're talking about? how the fuck are you supposed to 'engage' with a gaggle of young tories literally covered in racist symbols whose political beliefs extend as far as 'fuck the NHS'? those people weren't even welcome at their university

So what would you do with them then?

[Mash011]

3 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

So what would you do with them then?

Well if I was unlucky enough to bump into them I'd like to say I'm confident enough to tell the nasty twats to fuck off but more likely I'd just mutter something under my breath and walk away. Either way while tories may or may not be welcome it's safe to say if they dress like that they'll be made to feel very unwelcome.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Mash011

[glastolover19]

6 minutes ago, Mash011 said:

Well if I was unlucky enough to bump into them I'd like to say I'm confident enough to tell the nasty twats to fuck off but more likely I'd just mutter something under my breath and walk away. Either way while tories may or may not be welcome it's safe to say if they dress like that they'll be made to feel very unwelcome.

Fair play we all deal with things differently. And I don't want you to think I condone their actions,I try to stay neutral my point is surely it's better to find out why they feel that way? Or to share your pov with them in a calm discussion in the hope they perhaps see things differently. I don't think it's a bad thing to try and educate anyone and potentially they might realize that the ideas are not necessarily right

[stuartbert two hats]

2 hours ago, Mash011 said:

Yes agreed, I bet the fuck the nhs hitler moustache white supremacist group of drunk students have some really good ideas if only the """tolerant""" left would let them speak.

Upvoted for good use of quadruple quotes.

[Mash011]

12 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

Fair play we all deal with things differently. And I don't want you to think I condone their actions,I try to stay neutral my point is surely it's better to find out why they feel that way? Or to share your pov with them in a calm discussion in the hope they perhaps see things differently. I don't think it's a bad thing to try and educate anyone and potentially they might realize that the ideas are not necessarily right

Yeah like in general that's a good attitude but to apply it to the particular image you're responding to there, it's not really going to work with people who are coming out with violent and hateful shit like that. And Glastonbury in particular should stay as a place where that is entirely rejected and unwelcome.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Mash011

[glastolover19]

1 minute ago, Mash011 said:

Yeah like in general that's a good attitude but to apply it to the particular image you're responding to there, it's not really going to work with people who are coming out with violent and hateful shit like that.

Ok so what do you suggest we do with them? I'm not saying my idea is right by the way I'm just saying imo it would be better to try and open their eyes to different views and find out why they feel that way and what can be done to fix it or explain any misunderstanding they may have. Remember peoples opinions change all the time and by discussing stuff openly you can hopefully make them understand things differently then what they have been exposed to.