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Are Tories welcome at Glastonbury


Apone
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18 minutes ago, strummer77 said:

I am a democrat though, and that's why I actually think that right now we had a vote we should be proceeding with Brexit in the immediate future but holding it to severe scrutiny. 

I'm with you on that part. Telling them their vote shouldn't count is only going to make them more determined. It's only by holding brexit to scrutiny that we might convince those who want to leave what a bad idea leaving is.

And I reckon we're getting there, too. There was someone (I forget who) who said it would take 18 months for the UK to properly wake up to the consequences, and that seems to be holding true to some extent.

Fingers crossed.

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17 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'm with you on that part. Telling them their vote shouldn't count is only going to make them more determined. It's only by holding brexit to scrutiny that we might convince those who want to leave what a bad idea leaving is.

And I reckon we're getting there, too. There was someone (I forget who) who said it would take 18 months for the UK to properly wake up to the consequences, and that seems to be holding true to some extent.

Fingers crossed.

Yes I agree. To ignore the vote would be a dangerous precedent and in my opinion would actually lead to the rise of even more dangerous far right movements.

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6 minutes ago, strummer77 said:

To ignore the vote would be a dangerous precedent and in my opinion would actually lead to the rise of even more dangerous far right movements.

Yup - but that's a different thing to it perhaps being over-turned.

The public mood might change, and change by clearly-enough so that it's right for the question to be revisited. And if it was, the only way it can be revisited is by the same method as was used last time (so another ref, to the same rules).

It's still a bit early for some noise about that to start (going too soon would probably work against it), but i'm currently worried there won't be any leader of stature prepared to make that noise when the time is right. :(

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2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

in a democracy the public can never be wrong.

Just like me, I'm sure you only think the public are wrong because the answer was the wrong answer for you.

 

Because some people are more-worthy to give the 'right' answer than others?

No. It's simply a question of how informed the choices that the public make are. Newspapers acting with vested interests (which they don't declare) take advantage of the fact people have busy lives and can't possibly be expected to be informed about every issue based on facts. Politicians are paid to make informed decisions based on facts - now you could (correctly) argue that our MPs have vested interests which often horribly overpower their primary duty of putting the country first, but they're still going to be more informed about societal and economic affairs than the vast majority of the public. 'Expanding democracy' doesn't work unless it goes hand-in-hand with better political education. Unless you can guarantee that the general public are going to be informed as MPs about the issues of the day, giving the public a vote on issues beyond picking their delegates to Parliament every five years is asking for trouble.

Incidentally I'm not saying swathes of the public didn't bother with proper research and reflection ahead of casting their vote last June, but equally it's clear as day that there are swathes of the public who didn't and just voted based on emotion and fear.

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22 minutes ago, Zac Quinn said:

No. It's simply a question of how informed the choices that the public make are. Newspapers acting with vested interests (which they don't declare) take advantage of the fact people have busy lives and can't possibly be expected to be informed about every issue based on facts. Politicians are paid to make informed decisions based on facts - now you could (correctly) argue that our MPs have vested interests which often horribly overpower their primary duty of putting the country first, but they're still going to be more informed about societal and economic affairs than the vast majority of the public. 'Expanding democracy' doesn't work unless it goes hand-in-hand with better political education. Unless you can guarantee that the general public are going to be informed as MPs about the issues of the day, giving the public a vote on issues beyond picking their delegates to Parliament every five years is asking for trouble.

Incidentally I'm not saying swathes of the public didn't bother with proper research and reflection ahead of casting their vote last June, but equally it's clear as day that there are swathes of the public who didn't and just voted based on emotion and fear.

Thing is, that's ultimately based within the idea that the public should be as informed as you believe you are - when there's no obligation on them to know more, and therefore it doesn't invalidate their choice or somehow make it worth less than yours.

It might be unfortunate for the outcome you/I might prefer when it works against you/me, but that's how it is and that's how it'll always be. Same with the newspapers, unless we're to stop having a free press. And if these people are so dumb, why can't smart people on our side get the better of them?

In the end, that narrative is just an excuse for failure: if only we had a different & better electorate, eh? :P

(also, if the stupid people are equally stupid, why can't they be equally stupid in a proportional way? There's all of the same influences onto them as there is everyone else)

And sometimes, when the politicians don't seem to be respecting their voters (and when those voters can see other EU states having refs at crucial points along the path we're being taken), it's hardly a surprise for the electorate to kick off and ask for themselves to make a decision. I think, as far as the EU is concerned the big mistake was not having a ref far earlier.

These are the things which have to be overcome or worked around. There's no other way without stepping over a line into somewhere darker.

Edited by eFestivals
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On 8/12/2017 at 6:16 PM, Rose-Colored Boy said:

Depends what they want from Brexit. Anyone who voted for it to see Britain become a tax haven, or to cut H&S regulation etc, well they can get to fuck.

he says while shitting into a pit in the ground while taking drugs sold by randoms... :lol:

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5 minutes ago, UEF said:

he says while shitting into a pit in the ground while taking drugs sold by randoms... :lol:

Yes, optionally taking drugs at a music festival is exactly the same as Jacob Rees-Mogg rolling back H&S legislation so his chums who run mega-corps can stop pretending to care about the welfare of their employees, well done.

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On 7/7/2017 at 4:28 PM, Apone said:

Just wondering because as I wandered around what struck me was the amount of vile,abusive,threatening and downright aggressive anti Tory messaging I have ever seen at the festival, In my view it was my favourite of the 6 I've been to in every way,bands,DJs,weather,side attractions,food, Thatchers cider (yummy!) but not the politics which was just everywhere this year. I totally get that Glastonbury is a left leaning festival, thats fine but does this leftness just have to be so damn aggressive and toxic. Seems the original Glasto ethos of peace,love, harmony has been completely lost in aggressive Momentum style Left wing rhetoric. This was compounded by Corbyn crashing the Glasto crowd, claim them as his own and practically blaming rich evil Tories for killing everyone at Grenfell,this a  spectacle I was forced to watch whilst awaiting the arrival of the Kaiser Chiefs on the Other Stage. It is a pity as Tory supporters prob make up a massive proportion of the Glasto festival goers, and if they're not welcome then presumably neither is their money and Glasto can just become a giant version of the Leftield stage.  

Sensible replies please

What makes you think that? 

Blaming the Tories for Grenfell is absolutely right. A Tory run council - one of the few in the country running at a surplus, chose to cover a tower block with flammable material and not to install sprinklers throughout. When your party has voted against landlords being responsible for ensuring their properties are fit for human habitation, whether it's a matter of comfort, convenience or life and death as Grenfell was, you can't wash your hands of that. 

Still, in an odd way, it must take a lot of openmindedness for a Tory to go to Glastonbury - a place that is generally anti-Tory, and still have a good time. But yeah, any vile, abusive, aggressive anti-Tory messaging is nothing compared to the lives the party's policies have destroyed, eh?

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43 minutes ago, Henrik said:

Anyone who thinks that someone shouldn't be welcome at Glastonbury because of the way they voted in an election or referendum has totally missed the point IMO. 

People shouldn’t be outright banned as such no, but being made to feel like a monster at a festival which literally has it roots in the counter-cultural movement of the 60s is the least inconvenience you deserve if you’re a selfish c**t along the lines of Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage. Normalising and gifting an aura of legitimacy to people of that ilk with weasel words like “I think you make an honest point which should be taken into account but I’d like to politely object” rather than with outright condemnation is one of the main reasons both the UK and America are currently facing armageddon, and if Glastonbury of all places can’t put up a stronger fight than that then what is the festival even for.

Edited by Rose-Colored Boy
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If people really want to talk politics at Glastonbury then is should be a place where the left and right can come together. The idea that you can just pick a side and have faith that side will be correct about everything is just dumb as fuck. We need the centre left and the centre right to come together and have a rational conversation. People don't like to hear it but we do need both sides. The far extremes on the right and left can safely be ignored. 

Edited by Henrik
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5 minutes ago, Henrik said:

If people really want to talk politics at Glastonbury then is should be a place where the left and right can come together. The idea that you can just pick a side and have faith that side will be correct about everything is just dumb as fuck. We need the centre left and the centre right to come together and have a rational conversation. People don't like to hear it but we do need both sides. The far extremes on the right and left can safely be ignored. 

Not sure how many people have the idea that either side is right about everything, to be honest. Bloody hell, I've even found myself agreeing with Michael Gove before, that was weird ?

I don't know how likely we are to have the centre left and the centre right coming together, when so many politicians, journalists and randomers on the internet are so keen to plot against each other anyway, it's been such a toxic political environment for years. Political debate is so frustratingly over-simplified and binary at times too. If you're not with us, you're against us. If you agree with so-and-so about this, you must agree with them about that. If you oppose something, you must support the opposite.  Too many shades of grey for owt like that, but everyone's just too busy calling each other gammons and snowflakes. 

What concerns and baffles me is that the May's Tories don't seem to be seen as extreme.

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3 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

Strangely I was thinking about this thread (or a very similar one) the oher day. Specifically the Tory lady who was complaining about Shangri La being "too gay".

Imagine being that much of an arse then wondering why you felt unwelcome at Glastonbury.

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4 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Political debate is so frustratingly over-simplified and binary at times too.

says the geezer who just pinned everything of Grenfell solely on the tories :P  - despite it being 30+ years in the making and including many wrong &/or bad decisions by the building trade all those years ago that have become standard-practice since, alongside the lessened regulation.

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Who really cares about what party you support(fyi I'm neutral) surely the point of Glastonbury is so people can get away from that stuff for a few days and just enjoy themselves. If you're Tory that's great,if you're Labour that's great,if you're ukip that's great etc etc. Bottom line is we all have different views and opinions,not 1 single person is right and just because you don't believe the same doesn't make you right. I have friends that support all different parties but then again I don't pick my friends based on who gets their vote. Everyone should be included at Glastonbury and the world in general. Personally I can say I didn't witness anyone suffering abuse last year because of their political leanings,I'm not saying it didn't I just did see any. I do feel that the demographic of the festival has most definitely changed over the last 20+ years and certainly more so in the last 10. At the end of the day I see that for those 5 days we are all the same,we all sh!t In a hole,we all get muddy,we all drink cheap warm booze,so for those 5days we are the same regardless of beliefs. Lets just embrace each other and enjoy ourselves and maybe even learn from each other

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During the 80’s, political speeches on the Pyramid were a regular thing, and were pretty much all left-leaning - such as the campaign for nuclear disarmament, to which some of the proceeds went at the time. Ultimately, it’s the Eaviis’ festival and they can invite who they wish to speak. Whilst I’m sure the farm is in prime Tory heartlands, and no doubt a proportion of the crowd are Tory voters, I can’t see them giving Theresa May or Boris Johnson any publicity anytime soon. The bottom line: if you don’t agree with what the festival stands for, then maybe it isn’t for you.

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1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

says the geezer who just pinned everything of Grenfell solely on the tories :P  - despite it being 30+ years in the making and including many wrong &/or bad decisions by the building trade all those years ago that have become standard-practice since, alongside the lessened regulation.

Oh, not you again...

I didn't say solely. 

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And yet you didn't blame anyone else....

44 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Blaming the Tories for Grenfell is absolutely right.

From one angle, it all started by some geezer wrongly specifying those panels as suitable for towerblocks when they shouldn't have been, and from that initial use it became standard practice. 

From one angle, it all started when UPVC window installers started using foam filler around the new windows, and it became standard practice.

From one angle, it all started when tower-block work became so commonplace that tower-block building regs about separation and the reasons for them got lost within the world of work, and the shoddy and dangerous became the standard.

Etc, etc, etc.

You mentioned the council's decision to not install sprinklers, and yet had those three things I mention not have happened decades before that sprinkler decision there would have been little point in the sprinklers.

In reality it was the perfect storm of a number of bad decisions over decades, then compounded by the likes of no-sprinklers (as they would have made a difference because of all the shoddy work).

I hate to defend them but if the conclusion is going to be "the tories" then we're only ensuring another tragedy.

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12 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

surely the point of Glastonbury is so people can get away from that stuff for a few days 

I mean, literally, no, it isn’t, although it is understandable why such a high proportion of attendees have this misconception. The festival could do themselves no harm by politely suggesting to the BBC that they might like to broadcast some of the speeches in the political and activist fields, that’d soon change things.

Edited by Rose-Colored Boy
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