Explosion at the M.E.N

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

6 minutes ago, fowls said:

  I'm sure that will fade over the next week or two, but hopefully something can carry on.

I'm not sure that this attack will fade in peoples minds, although, will admit, that I can only really use myself as a yard stick to judge that. 

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

17 minutes ago, Waapster said:

I have a little (really tiny) overlap with the intel world (not a spook though). Loads is going on, remember this if you object at some time to things like Government snooping on public internet use or emails - you can't ask the Government to do more and to do less at the same time. The surveillance effort is impressive and, I believe, plots are stopped every year. Sadly there will probably always be some that get through unless we accept really intrusive limits on our freedom and privacy.

In terms of locking up suspects - the rule of law, fairness, justice and freedom are the things that make us better than these murderous animals.

As a complete aside to this discussion, that's very interesting. When you joined our group to camp with at Glastonbury a few years ago, my wife immediately said that you were a spook. I guess she was wrong but she was heading in the right direction with her assessment. 

Anyway, please come and say hello to our gang this year. As you know, you'll be very welcome. 

[Waapster]

7 minutes ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

 

Anyway, please come and say hello to our gang this year. As you know, you'll be very welcome. 

I know, thanks. Really looking forward to catching up.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Just now, Waapster said:

I know, thanks. Really looking forward to catching up.

Yes, it'll be lovely to catch up again. We are a bit of a depleted crew this year, but will, naturally, be as hedonistic as usual. 

See you soon S.  

[clarkete]

1 hour ago, Simpo said:

As regards homelessness in Manchester, I am thankful that the new mayor Andy Burnham has made it a priority to help those on the streets. I also see Dantastic has extended his charity bins to add 250 painted with bees, which you can have your name put on for £20. The money will go towards Forever Manchester, a fund which aims to help rough sleepers in Manchester get off the streets. https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/GlastonburyLovesManchester

 

Thanks for the heads up  

[clarkete]

42 minutes ago, Flysheet said:

Paying "tribute" is too fucking easy with social media. Change your profile pic, overlay it with the latest emoticon etc. Start a petition or fund. Have a vigil - although this was very welcome last night in Mcr and I think was done very well.

Folk like to be seen doing the right thing and hoping their mates give it a thumbs up 

There's a term for it now, Virtue Signalling, changes nothing and won't stop whatever is going to happen from happening. 

I understand what you're getting at one the one hand regarding pictures and the like, but on the money side I disagree for some quite obvious reasons:-

1.  There are people directly affected who will have costs incurred which they wouldn't have predicted and may not be able to meet, whether they be the simple immediate things where relatives are staying in hotels near hospitals, transport and the like, through to longer term issues where people may experience change of circumstances due to disability, counselling needs, tons of things I'm not sage enough to anticipate.  Presumably the potential for such a large pool of victims, many with a long life ahead of them could be quite extensive.

2.  We may hope that central government would open their cheque book and meet these costs, I don't know if they are, or will do?  Not something I've seen mentioned.

3.  There are people around the world who'll be moved by such an event, who may want to help in whatever way they can, if that current impetus means they choose to donate and that money goes to help those affected under point 1 then I think that's very positive. 

[deepkittycaz]

13 hours ago, Sidasta said:

Bit late to the game here but yeah, was Mew - it was a great gig, got right to the front much to my fanboy delight.  Wasn't until I was home when we saw the news, and then stayed up for the entire night watching the news as we couldn't sleep.

We went out last night (the night after Mew) to the vigil and then Broken Social Scene at Albert Hall, which was an incredibly emotional concert, brought tears to pretty much everyone's eyes, especially during a bit of therapy instigated by the lead singer where he asked everyone in the audience to scream all of their frustration, sadness, and anger out on the count of three.  It was deafening, and it sounds pretty cheesy, but it was so moving.

So glad none of the concerts in Manchester last night were cancelled. Was such a strong sense of community, solidarity, and all the other things that make me love this city so much. I've only lived here for a year but I feel so much closer to the city than I did when I lived in London for nine years.

I was at the BSS gig last night too, what an emotional show. I was nearly crying at the start when they brought Johnny Marr on.

[priest17]

3 hours ago, zico martin said:

I see a justgiving page has been set up for the families effected and over a million has been raised. Nice but I'm not really sure what that achieves. Is it just me that wonders whether it's more about making people not affected feel better about themselves than helping the families?

Always an interesting question, I don't think it's got a yes or no answer. There's a Friends episode that tackles it pretty well. I don't get to say that for many issues.

(Tackled was probably a strong word) 

[Odessa]

Utterly bizarre mindset to criticise people changing their profile picture or whatever. Not sure what is expected of your average person. Go out and try to stop terrorism when we hear of an attack? It's clearly just a sign that you're thinking about the victims. I've not done it but what an odd thing to have an issue with.

[stuartbert two hats]

I'll tell you one thing that's less useful than changing a profile picture, going to a vigil or any other form of showing solidarity with the friends and family left behind - sneering at people who do.

And raising money for the families affected is empty virtue signalling now? Give me a fucking break if that's all you've got to contribute. Sniping from the sidelines at people trying to process their own shock and grief isn't exactly going to change the world now is it? I don't think anyone thinks changing a profile picture actually changes anything, but nor does dressing in black or going to funerals. 

[henry bear]

1 hour ago, Waapster said:

I have a little (really tiny) overlap with the intel world (not a spook though). Loads is going on, remember this if you object at some time to things like Government snooping on public internet use or emails - you can't ask the Government to do more and to do less at the same time. The surveillance effort is impressive and, I believe, plots are stopped every year. Sadly there will probably always be some that get through unless we accept really intrusive limits on our freedom and privacy.

In terms of locking up suspects - the rule of law, fairness, justice and freedom are the things that make us better than these murderous animals.

Yes loads of plots have been thwarted, a number of which haven't been widely reported. I think it's remarkable that we've not had a major terrorist attack for so long. Desperately sad this week though.

Edited May 24, 2017 by henry bear

[adjwholovesmusic]

We are pretty much powerless in this situation and can't play a part or influence something in which we wish we could. So by changing our profile picture or whatever, in 95% of the cases it is done because we want to show that we care. I usually don't do this but have no problem with people who do. 

I would imagine and hope that most of us would help if we were put in the situation of the people of Manchester two nights ago. Help comes in many different ways but I'm convinced that the people on this board would step up to the plate. So let's stick together and praise and rejoice our solidarity.   

Edited May 24, 2017 by adjwholovesmusic

[adjwholovesmusic]

Might I add together we are stronger!  

Edited May 24, 2017 by adjwholovesmusic

[stuartbert two hats]

Just want to add that I'm not normally a rage poster, but been doing it a lot tonight.

Apologies and love. Peace to all peace lovers x

Edited May 24, 2017 by stuartbert two hats
Apologies and love.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

1 hour ago, Flysheet said:

 

Folk like to be seen doing the right thing and hoping their mates give it a thumbs up 

There's a term for it now, Virtue Signalling, changes nothing and won't stop whatever is going to happen from happening. 

The only alternative to caring is not to give a fuck. It's quite evident that people do actually give a fuck. Show me the empirical evidence to back up your statement that people are expressing their emotions purely to get a thumbs up.

[zico martin]

12 minutes ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

The only alternative to caring is not to give a fuck. It's quite evident that people do actually give a fuck. Show me the empirical evidence to back up your statement that people are expressing their emotions purely to get a thumbs up.

I'm sure we all give a fuck but I don't feel the need to tell all my 'Facebook' friends that I do or that I've given money to the families. I'm not criticising those that do, I merely questioned whether donating money would do any actual good. Someone earlier in the thread explained how the money could be used and I am happy with that response.  I genuinely wasn't sure what I think but I do now. No offense intended to anyone x

[Tranquility of Solitude]

I think decent people just try to process shock and grief in their own way. If setting up, or donating to a just giving page, or changing a profile picture helps somebody in the process, I for one would not criticise. Others will just be withdrawing into their own private shock. I confess when I saw the recent Rio Ferdinand documentary about losing his wife, my initial reaction was who would go in front of a TV camera under such circumstances? I know I couldn't. But we're not the same. The man was clearly in pain, and I wish him all the best. 

We - and by "we" I mean normal people who cannot contemplate slaughtering or hurting others - can only hope to overcome this evil by clear signposting of a better path. We can only do this by our actions towards each other, and setting a better example. Everywhere - and in modern society, especially on an online forum. For this reason I despair when I hear politicians hoping further bombing or bloodshed will somehow "win" this war. The very phrase "War against Terror" is a bit of an oxymoron. War IS terror. 

We - the humane - are the vast majority of humanity. We listen to music, we go to Glastonbury. We take the piss out of each other, we hug, we laugh, we cry.

Fuck them.

[arcade fireman]

7 hours ago, Flysheet said:

A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist.

Paying "tribute" is too fucking easy with social media. Change your profile pic, overlay it with the latest emoticon etc. Start a petition or fund. Have a vigil - although this was very welcome last night in Mcr and I think was done very well.

Folk like to be seen doing the right thing and hoping their mates give it a thumbs up 

There's a term for it now, Virtue Signalling, changes nothing and won't stop whatever is going to happen from happening. 

This is stupid. There's plenty of reactions to tragic events which change nothing but are just human reactions to grief. By your logic why even have a funeral? It isn't going to bring the person back from the dead. 

What happened on Monday hit home hard for a lot of people - I'd argue an attack somewhere like Manchester was that bit more resonant for people around the country than had it been in London. There's a tendency to think these things generally only happen in major cities but now there's a sense this could have been any of us going to the nearest city for a gig. Children died. People's lives have been changed forever. 

I'm personally not one to change my profile picture but people do it to pay tribute, to show a display of unity. Of course it doesn't stop it from happening but no one would claim it did.

That said, calls for unity, inclusion and making sure we don't do our bit to marginalise and scapegoat certain communities may in a small way help to break the cycle which has led to so much tragedy. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by arcade fireman

[Lucy92]

5 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Just want to add that I'm not normally a rage poster, but been doing it a lot tonight.

Apologies and love. Peace to all peace lovers x

Hope you're ok, I was looking at my mates Facebook and twitter last night and seeing all the amazing pictures and comments about martyn over the years. And then reading about all the other victims on the news. Made me feel so sad. They were just normal people  

[Quark]

9 hours ago, Deaf Nobby Burton said:

I fully get what you're saying here, but I wouldn't get annoyed. This millionaire may be regularly carry out philanthropic deeds day in day out for all we know, but he can't be expected to have known about this homeless man until he heard about him on the news and he has acted accordingly.

Yeah I know, there's a massive assumption on my part that he's just appeared now to be the knight in shining armour. It's a point well made. I think it was the "deserving" part that got me.

[Quark]

I shall try to rein in my general cynicism.  Fully agree that now is not the time or place to be a miserable git, and certainly doesn't help. Who knows what image I'm subconsciously trying to present by posting thoughts like that? Am I after upvotes for social indignation? Genuinely don't know.  All I know is that so long as you're constantly asking those questions and challenging your own motives and thought processes you have a greater chance of steering away from the path of being an asshole.

"Whenever two people meet, there are really six people present. There is each man as he sees himself, each man as the other person sees him, and each man as he really is." - William James

Love and peace to all

 

 

[Lucy92]

6 minutes ago, Quark said:

I shall try to rein in my general cynicism.  Fully agree that now is not the time or place to be a miserable git, and certainly doesn't help. Who knows what image I'm subconsciously trying to present by posting thoughts like that? Am I after upvotes for social indignation? Genuinely don't know.  All I know is that so long as you're constantly asking those questions and challenging your own motives and thought processes you have a greater chance of steering away from the path of being an asshole.

"Whenever two people meet, there are really six people present. There is each man as he sees himself, each man as the other person sees him, and each man as he really is." - William James

Love and peace to all

 

 

That's a great quote! 

[Quark]

Just now, Lucy92 said:

That's a great quote! 

One of my favourites

Really useful concept when you're struggling to understand or get on with someone, I find. 

[Lucy92]

Just read that the Scottish girl who was missing has been named as one of those killed. Feeling for her parents, her friend who was missing was found in hospital so her parents must have been wishing she was found in hospital too, I guess they may have had a sense of hope she'd be found too as they were together. So so sad 

[sabre-toothed tart]

I donated to the Just Giving page for the homeless man, Steve.  And yes, it was 100% a knee jerk reaction to Monday's events.  I felt angry and scared and sad, and here was something that I could do.  If the money raised goes to helping Steve and others like him then I really don't see why that's a bad thing? Surely the fact that so many people have dontated to this, or to help the families involved, shows how wonderful people are and gives me hope.  I was moved to tears watching the clip about Steve.  Homelessness is such a massive problem in Manchester (and all over).  I'm heartened by Andy Burnhams pledge to help. Coffee4Craig is a wonderful local charity in Manchester that runs soup kitchens in the city centre and one I personally donate to as well.  Sorry if I've gone a bit off topic but just don't understand why raising money is a bad thing???