Don't vote Tory

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

I live in a mega safe Tory constituency, it will never not be Tory. I voted Lib Dem as I still can't get behind Labour.

 

Edit: ( I should add, while JC is in charge that is)

Edited June 8, 2017 by Deaf Nobby Burton

[arcade fireman]

13 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Agreed. With how well Corbyn has seemingly done off his own back, you have to wonder how this would have gone had he had the full backing of the party. If he had that initially intended shadow cabinet from across the party including far more moderate (and competent) figures before they all decided they wanted out. If the likes of Burnham could have been visible in this campaign and contributed to an even stronger manifesto. Had there not been two years of the baggage of party in-fighting.

But then, no-one really expected an election right now. 

The biggest reasons why people won't vote for Corbyn aren't down to the party infighting. They're down to Corbyn himself - his past associations with the IRA (the explanations for which I've heard and are only half satisfactory), his strong support for fringe left wing positions in the past, his positions on national security issues which are neither here nor there. 

And it was Corbyn's decision to have John McDonnell as his shadow chancellor. Part of the reason he got such a backlash early on is because he appointed McDonnell in that role. Diane Abbott might not be the most competent but surely a leader should be appointing a like minded ally as his shadow Home Sec? Abbott is certainly that.

Corbyn has fought a good campaign but the polling so far has told us very little of this support is from 2015 Tory voters. And that's the issue - no matter what the state of the party there was always going to be a ceiling on the level of support he could have attracted. I am guessing the final results will tell us we would have been a very long way from a Labour government. I don't think a few more Labour MPs pretending they thought Corbyn stood a chance will change that. 

[Little Andy]

40 minutes ago, simian_mobile_mushrooms said:

Pretty interesting read on Corbyn. Probably also why I won't be voting for him... But then voting for the Tories is also something I am not gonna do. What a shit choice of parties/leaders

Can we take articles like this at face value? Are there any counter arguments or reasons to indicate it is wrong or twisted? Or is it a matter of even Labour voters agree with the points in the article? What confuses me most is that on the surface Corbyn has always seemed like a very moral man to me, so I don't know if the impression I got is wrong or not.

[arcade fireman]

16 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

I don't think so, Burnham problem was he kept flip flopping and seemed insincere in the leadership contest - so May's performance wouldn't have stood out as much this election (unexpectedly Corbyn's qualities made her failings stand out in comparison). Would ex UKIP supporters have flocked to Burnham? What tory voters?  Im really not sure- guess well never know. 

Nope the fundamental reason why voters suddenly flocked to Corbyn over all the other candidates was the Welfare Bill. That was the moment the polling changed. Whatever you perceive as his flip flopping might have been why you didn't vote for him but almost certainly wasn't why people put Corbyn over him.

Look at the breakdown of how each Manchester borough voted in the mayoral election compared with General Election results for 2015 in the same area. Not an exact science I know as lower turnout, different candidates etc. But clear evidence of Burnham outperforming the 2015 vote and pulling Tory voters. No area even needed second preference voting - he won on first preferences everywhere which the Liverpool candidate for example didn't manage. 

[liamium]

make like impassive ellie goulding with her completely unnecessary photo here and 'Go and vote

 

[Spindles]

I would disagree.  Everyone I know voted for Corbyn because they felt that we were being offered more of the same from other candidates and that they wanted Labour to move to the left and then convince the electorate to follow, not move to the right to appeal to people whose principles didn't match their own.  They were old school lefties who were disillusioned by the Iraq war, by Labour seemingly cosying up to the money men and the corporations, by Tony Blair and what he came to represent.

[uscore]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

or alternatively, the members weren't prepared to accept a viable candidate, preferring self-indulgence over victory.

There were viable candidates. Burnham & Cooper would have been, for example. They are individuals who would be acceptable to those who cannot bring themselves to vote for Corbyn, that segment of the electorate from which victory is possible.

I remain convinced, tho, that everything of where we are tumbles from that initial flawed self-indugent choice of Corbyn. Everything about it pointed to failure, and at the time of his election huge numbers who supported him were happy to say "I don't care if he fails".

They've got what they said they wanted, yet they seem to care about failure after all - far too late. 

Actually, I take issue with this point as well.  In any vote it's perfectly legitimate to vote for your favourite candidate for a myriad of reasons.  They might simply represent your views best, or you might think they would be best for the country.  To reduce that to "self-indulgence over victory" isn't fair.

I don't think people voted for Corbyn thinking he wouldn't win.  I think most people, like me, hoped he would win. That the right of the Labour party would back him, in the way the right of the party would expect the left of the party would back a centrist candidate (which also doesn't always happen - I left Labour to vote Green on previous occasions)

I think at worst you can say that people who selected him were wrong about him.  I think the "I don't care if he wins" line you keep using comes from people being defensive from constantly being questioned about it.

And actually, even if people did vote for him thinking he had less of a chance of becoming PM than other candidates, that's legitimate too.  People vote in elections for the Greens, or Ukip, or their favourite regardless of chances of success.  If you give people the option to vote you have to respect the fact they will vote for who they want to.  Like I said, at the time I saw the Labour candidates of more-of-the-same and chose something different.  I expected Labour to lose the next election but felt Corbyn might have been able to shake things up a bit and was the best gamble to change things and win.  It looks like I was wrong, but it was a decision out of good faith, not self indulgence.

[babyblade41]

just curious  those who are backing Labour today...... who did your votes go to when Blair was in charge ? 

[Spindles]

Just now, babyblade41 said:

just curious  those who are backing Labour today...... who did your votes go to when Blair was in charge ? 

I voted for Blair in 1997 and 2001.  I voted LibDem as a protest vote in 2005 as I was against the war and the direction the government were then taking.  I supported Gordon Brown's leadership and felt he was unfairly maligned for things he didn't actually do.  I supported Ed Miliband's leadership grudgingly, not feeling he was the best candidate we had at the time.

[babyblade41]

Just now, Spindles said:

I voted for Blair in 1997 and 2001.  I voted LibDem as a protest vote in 2005 as I was against the war and the direction the government were then taking.  I supported Gordon Brown's leadership and felt he was unfairly maligned for things he didn't actually do.  I supported Ed Miliband's leadership grudgingly, not feeling he was the best candidate we had at the time.

That's interesting thanks 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, russycarps said:

Her personal opinion is that fox hunting should not be banned. That is an absolute fact. It is incomprehensible to me that someone who dedicates their life to running an animal rescue centre would vote for someone with that view.

yep, but that's something different to what you first said.

[Mattty]

This is pretty much my view

[uscore]

10 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

just curious  those who are backing Labour today...... who did your votes go to when Blair was in charge ? 

I didn't vote in 1997, tho I would have voted for Blair.  I voted Lib Dem a few times since, partly because of Iraq, but to be fair Labour weren't in with a chance where I lived.

I've literally never voted for the winning candidate in my life in anything. But it's not me that's wrong, it's everyone else!

[babyblade41]

1 minute ago, uscore said:

I didn't vote in 1997, tho I would have voted for Blair.  I voted Lib Dem a few times since, partly because of Iraq, but to be fair Labour weren't in with a chance where I lived.

I've literally never voted for the winning candidate in my life in anything. But it's not me that's wrong, it's everyone else!

love that reply...have no up votes left 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, Mr.Tease said:

I agree we need a winning leader, the problem we have is there wasn't one at the last contest!

You're using Corbyn's flaws to defend his flaws, and your own in selecting him.

Other options with different and less certain outcomes were available.

The line you're giving now will be used to try and hold failure in position to fail again. Without learning the lessons failure is all there will ever be.

[Spindles]

9 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

That's interesting thanks 

It was an interesting question.  It would be nice to read why people chose to vote in previous elections, rather than the tit for tat nonsense that most of this thread is.  My own peer group mostly voted in the same pattern as myself, with a few dabbling longer with the LibDems after that and others having the occasional dalliance with Greens or not voting at all.  All have come back to Labour this year and even a few I know who'd previously been *gulp* UKIP voters.

[babyblade41]

Just now, Spindles said:

It was an interesting question.  It would be nice to read why people chose to vote in previous elections, rather than the tit for tat nonsense that most of this thread is.  My own peer group mostly voted in the same pattern as myself, with a few dabbling longer with the LibDems after that and others having the occasional dalliance with Greens or not voting at all.  All have come back to Labour this year and even a few I know who'd previously been *gulp* UKIP voters.

The reason I asked was because of the clear difference between Corbyn and Blair and those who are backing Corbyn to the hilt do so because of him or because he just happens to be leader of the Labour Party at the present time and would therefor vote for any labour party regardless of who is at the helm

[uscore]

8 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

love that reply...have no up votes left 

you are too frivolous with your upvotes if you've run out by 10am.  No more voting for you today, in anything, ok?

[babyblade41]

Just now, uscore said:

you are too frivolous with your upvotes if you've run out by 10am.  No more voting for you today, in anything, ok?

you nearly got me there 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, FrancisH said:

Or, you know - maybe the members voted not in self-indulgence but because we'd just had an election disaster with a robotic moderate as leader.:lol:

 

So voting in support of another *certain* election disaster was the answer?

People used to say to me "are you a clairvoyant?" to defend Corbyn. Well guess what? It looks like I am.

 

1 hour ago, FrancisH said:

This is my main gripe with your Corbyn bashing. It's absolutely fair enough you don't like the guy or his policies, but don't stereotype anyone who voted for him as selfish or stupid - these are actual people with actual reasons for doing so. And Burnham and Cooper were viable candidates in your opinion. They were shit, in my opinion.

And all you';re doing there is demonstrating how resolutely against learning the lessons you are.

Almost nothing of what I've said about Corbyn is to do personal dislike of him or the policies. I'm not saying Corbyn is shit in my opinion, I've been saying he'll always be shit in the country's opinion - because that's the result of the marginal views he holds.

Even by offering the world on a stick for free he's not been able to change that, AND against the worst tory campaign in my lifetime.

 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, DeanoL said:

Agreed. With how well Corbyn has seemingly done off his own back, you have to wonder how this would have gone had he had the full backing of the party. If he had that initially intended shadow cabinet from across the party including far more moderate (and competent) figures before they all decided they wanted out. If the likes of Burnham could have been visible in this campaign and contributed to an even stronger manifesto. Had there not been two years of the baggage of party in-fighting.

But then, no-one really expected an election right now. 

This just wants to make me scream. Again, it's trying to pretend there isn't the starting problem with Corbyn, to skip past that and ignore it so that the blame can be put some where else so that Jezza can have a free pass.

Ask yourself: how many people in this country do you think support this country being led by a guy who stood alongside terrorists who were attacking this country?

Yep, I know lots of people will free-pass that - me included - but for others it's big BIG issue.

And if it were just the one marginal thing like that, perhaps he'd get away with it ... but he has a list of similar things as long as your arm, where each one stops a number of people who might otherwise support Labour from supporting Labour.

It's Corbyn's baggage that was the first problem and every problem.

[babyblade41]

32 minutes ago, Spindles said:

just curious  those who are backing Labour today...... who did your votes go to when Blair was in charge ? 

Just thought I'd divulge my secrets...  If I was the young me I would possibly be voting labour today with Corbyn in charge , who I am now thinks that is if something sounds too good to be true it probably is  and also through age and circumstances my perceptions on life has changed , it's why he wont get my vote today 

[stuartbert two hats]

15 minutes ago, uscore said:

you are too frivolous with your upvotes if you've run out by 10am.  No more voting for you today, in anything, ok?

It's on a 24 hour window, rather than resetting at midnight.  Wait around @babyblade41, you'll probably get some more upvotes later on.

[babyblade41]

Just now, stuartbert two hats said:

It's on a 24 hour window, rather than resetting at midnight.  Wait around @babyblade41, you'll probably get some more upvotes later on.

I don't use that many on this thread and certainly don't receive any that's for sure.... good job I have broad  shoulders  !! I daren't look at the amount of down votes on my profile it might make me cry 

[FuzzyDunlop]

Well Heywood & Middleton has just had a labour vote... I can confirm that.

That's the only exit poll I can 100% confirm.

6 people voting at the same time. Which was surprising.