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2 minutes ago, Eyebrow said:

What other species collects land?

theres a difference between having a home/territory and being satisfied with that, and the quest to have more and more and more.

well, to be fair-ish, some of how it's panned out in the UK is a consequence of how Billy Conqueror said he owned all the land, and then gave bits to his mates. That was always going to cause large tracts in the ownership of a few individuals.

But the enclosures and the clearances were something else, where people were driven off the land they depended on for their very survival so those greedy families could have even more. Today, 60% of England's land is owned by those same Norman families, who've never done a day's work in a thousand years. ;)

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3 minutes ago, Eyebrow said:

What other species collects land?

theres a difference between having a home/territory and being satisfied with that, and the quest to have more and more and more.

I'd like lots more...4 acres so far and would love to buy the farmers field at the bottom of mine, I can extend my animal rescue even further although the cost to keep said animals is getting to the peak of my budget as it is without even more...vet bills are dearer than private medical care !! ~I would apply for charity status if I could but this land tax JC has sneakily got tucked away means everything has to be on hold for the minute though . Still I can dream I suppose  The last vet bill was 700.00 to trim pigs feet then a week later one got poorly and it was 120.00 vet  call out and 100.00 for the marksman to put him to sleep and remove the body . Glastonbury is being done on an extremely tight budget 

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27 minutes ago, Teddington said:

Not at all.  Those that vote knowing they will pay more, well that is their choice.  But why should they impose that choice on others?

Because it gets voted in! That's what the election is all about... which choice, yours, theirs or an other - is imposed onto the people.

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24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

which would make no difference at all to the problem with deregulated bankers is that eventually they run out of other people's money.

 

And yet they've happened in other times, when retail banking was separate.

It's the ruling class sorting out the problems of the ruling class, without any of the second thoughts that exist in sorting out the problems of other classes.

 

Might you consider the human race to be something better than 'every species'?

It's a political decision to have ownership of land in the way that we do. It's got fuck all to do with 'every species'.

Actually no.

 

We are merely the dominant species at a certain time of the planets history. 

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21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Why should brexit be imposed onto me? (Or if the vote had gone the other way, why should the EU be imposed onto me?).

It's called democracy. Everyone has all the w*nky stuff the tories always do imposed on them, so why do you think it shouldn't work the other way around?

Exactly it's democracy.   A few on here would do well to remember that when arguing the other way!

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2 minutes ago, Teddington said:

Actually no.

 

We are merely the dominant species at a certain time of the planets history. 

and the other part, about where the system that we have is a man-made political construct and fuck all to do with anything 'natural'?

A political construct specifically designed to keep the powerful powerful, and the weak without power.

But most laughable of all, almost all countries in the world have carried out land reform of some kind, whereas the UK never has. We don't even manage to tax land-use anywhere near fairly.

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A democratic country whether we agree or disagree and I'm very proud to belong here and proud we are able to have these discussions freely.

Even though I'm not as knowledgable about some things like most of you on here are but life experience is just as valuable too 

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42 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and the other part, about where the system that we have is a man-made political construct and fuck all to do with anything 'natural'?

A political construct specifically designed to keep the powerful powerful, and the weak without power.

But most laughable of all, almost all countries in the world have carried out land reform of some kind, whereas the UK never has. We don't even manage to tax land-use anywhere near fairly.

Depends how you define natural really.

Fairly is also subjective........

 

All I do know is that, despite it's imperfections, capitalism has led to the lifestyle that we enjoy today.  A lifestyle that the richest top 0.0001% of people could only dream about a couple of hundred years ago.

Any attempt to replace this with another ideology has resulted in failure and reversal (USSR, China and soon Cuba)

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Just seen this poll from Lord Ashcroft Polls (yes, the well known Tory donor so not sure of it's impartiality). They appear to calculate differently to the others. Also includes a section predicting by constituency.  

Full details here

Constituency predictions here

FileHandler.ashx.png

Edited by Ommadawn
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3 hours ago, Teddington said:

Not at all.  Those that vote knowing they will pay more, well that is their choice.  But why should they impose that choice on others?

Right but the Tories put up VAT which was imposed on everyone, why should I be effected by that when I didn't vote for them? You're acting like the Tories never increase taxes. Now if there was a party running on the basis of eradicating taxation and services entirely I would see your point, but there isn't. There's essentially two disagreeing slightly over the precise figure and who should pay it.

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30 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

Just seen this poll from Lord Ashcroft Polls (yes, the well known Tory donor so not sure of it's impartiality). They appear to calculate differently to the others. Also includes a section predicting by constituency.  

Full details here

Constituency predictions here

FileHandler.ashx.png

I don't want to give Ashcroft any money by clicking on those links, but those numbers seem closer than his initial projections last week? 

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On 2017-4-19 at 9:32 AM, Glastocat said:

Couldn't agree more mate.

Had this argument last year with loads of people who were basically calling anyone who voted to leave were racists or stupid and basically saying they weren't welcome at Glastonbury, yes I'm including the vants in this who told everyone who voted to leave to fuck off.  Imo this and not just debating on the facts is what tipped the balance towards Brexit in the first place.

Glastonbury should be above this and in all my previous experiences apart from last year Glastonbury is the most inclusive place you could go.

By the way I wanted to remain but had friends who were neither racists nor stupid who voted to leave. Also where I come from Labour are pretty much assured to be voted in. As with the Brexit vote Sunderland south will be the first count in and it will be a labour seat.

 

 

well said marra,

People imposing their views on others, then insulting them when they don't agree really gets on my tits. Especially when it comes to voting in elections. Let people have the freedom to make their own minds up and vote how they see fit. If that differs from your own view, then so be it. Accept that people have different views and reasons for holding those views. 

 

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3 minutes ago, stubbs said:

well said marra,

People imposing their views on others, then insulting them when they don't agree really gets on my tits. Especially when it comes to voting in elections. Let people have the freedom to make their own minds up and vote how they see fit. If that differs from your own view, then so be it. Accept that people have different views and reasons for holding those views. 

I would love to be able do this, but it's really hard when you have ill and disabled friends that are looking at losing their benefits under another Tory regime (and ultimately losing either the roof over their heads, or what little health they have left by being forced back into work they can't do).

For a lot of people this isn't just some theoretical debate about how we should best manage the country. It's "my friends are fucked if the Tories get in".

Current Tory policies have killed thousands people. There's evidence out there for that. Acceptable loses for improving everyone elses lot? Lives were so fucked already they weren't really worth saving? There's merit to that argument for sure. It seems dispassionate and horrible but it makes sense. But you can't expect people to just blindly be okay with you expressing that view when they know someone that's died.

And that's the difference here. Yes, Corbyn's policies may drop quality of life for you or others you know. But they won't kill anyone. They won't ruin anyone's lives. So of course you don't see that anger from the Tory side, just Labour.

Yes, we can and should all be able to have our own opinions. But it's really fucking hard for a lot of people to just smile and go "I disagree with you but we all have our own vote" when what they're hearing from the other side is "I'm voting for the party that's going to take away the last bit of happiness from your disabled friend's life".

This is the thing, you see. You don't like being insulted and having things "get on your tits". I don't like people voting for my friends to die. We're not running the same race here.

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25 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

And that's the difference here. Yes, Corbyn's policies may drop quality of life for you or others you know. But they won't kill anyone. They won't ruin anyone's lives. So of course you don't see that anger from the Tory side, just Labour.

and what about small business and farmers don't they count , ? I think you need those rose tinted spectacles adjusted.. one policy doesn't fit all and either way people will suffer.  If JC is PM I know 2 people who it will affect there livelihood to such an extent that they will call it a day ... result 2 apprentices lose their job, 4 kids involved . If you believe labour wont have casualties to that extent then you are very blinkered 

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51 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

I would love to be able do this, but it's really hard when you have ill and disabled friends that are looking at losing their benefits under another Tory regime (and ultimately losing either the roof over their heads, or what little health they have left by being forced back into work they can't do).

For a lot of people this isn't just some theoretical debate about how we should best manage the country. It's "my friends are fucked if the Tories get in".

Current Tory policies have killed thousands people. There's evidence out there for that. Acceptable loses for improving everyone elses lot? Lives were so fucked already they weren't really worth saving? There's merit to that argument for sure. It seems dispassionate and horrible but it makes sense. But you can't expect people to just blindly be okay with you expressing that view when they know someone that's died.

And that's the difference here. Yes, Corbyn's policies may drop quality of life for you or others you know. But they won't kill anyone. They won't ruin anyone's lives. So of course you don't see that anger from the Tory side, just Labour.

Yes, we can and should all be able to have our own opinions. But it's really fucking hard for a lot of people to just smile and go "I disagree with you but we all have our own vote" when what they're hearing from the other side is "I'm voting for the party that's going to take away the last bit of happiness from your disabled friend's life".

This is the thing, you see. You don't like being insulted and having things "get on your tits". I don't like people voting for my friends to die. We're not running the same race here.

A tad emotive don't you think?

I'd love to see the evidence that thousands of people have been killed by Tory policies. If it exists, why aren't Labour politicians shouting from the rooftops cos I can't see that they are. Also can you give any examples of the friends of yours who are actually going to die if the Tories win?

Edited by Ommadawn
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1 minute ago, Levitz said:

Human rights on the bonfire to cover her arse. Fantastic. Rampant authoritarianism and incompetence just what we need. 

Better than having a chat with them like Corbyn would. That really would have stopped the recent attacks wouldn't it.

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1 minute ago, Ommadawn said:

A tad emotive don't you think?

That's the point. If politics isn't an emotional issue for you, it's because you're privileged enough for it not to be that way. I have some friends of friends who are in dire straits if the Tories get back in but I'm removed enough from it that I can debate (mostly) civilly in here. But I completely get why some people can't do that. And I think it's important to acknowledge that.

Study linking 30,000 deaths in NHS to Tory policies: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/nhs-cuts-excess-deaths-30000-study-research-royal-society-medicine-london-school-hygiene-martin-a7585001.html

Study linking 1000s of deaths to Tory fit-to-work policies: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/aug/27/thousands-died-after-fit-for-work-assessment-dwp-figures

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5 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

Better than having a chat with them like Corbyn would. That really would have stopped the recent attacks wouldn't it.

You miss the point totally. We are here because our foreign policy of doing whatever America wants us to do over the past 35 years has left large parts of the world without effective government, bred resentment at our bombing of innocent people and in a large part has led to the rise of IS and others.

We could continue to do that and become more inward looking and isolationist and stay holding hands with Trump and I guess that things will get worse not better.

The failed policy was of course supported by May and opposed by Corbyn

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20 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

and what about small business and farmers don't they count , ? I think you need those rose tinted spectacles adjusted.. one policy doesn't fit all and either way people will suffer.  If JC is PM I know 2 people who it will affect there livelihood to such an extent that they will call it a day ... result 2 apprentices lose their job, 4 kids involved . If you believe labour wont have casualties to that extent then you are very blinkered 

If companies can't afford to pay their staff a living wage then maybe the company can't actually afford to be in business after all. At the risk of sounding Tory about it, maybe your friends might need to go get a job? Instead of running a business that only works because it gets grants from the state to prop it up (essentially what the apprentice scheme is).

Your friends don't have to be running a small business. They could just be working for someone else. Regardless of what happens, they will land on their feet, and if they do fall, there will be a cushion there.

I'm not saying a Corbyn government wouldn't suck for some people. And wouldn't necessitate major life changes for some of those small business owners. I can even understand that those people are going to vote Tory because they don't want that to happen to them. I totally, totally get that. 

All I'm saying is that if you decide to that, and declare as much publicly, you have to understand why some people would take great affront to that. Because "I'll lose my business" is not equatable with "I'll lose my (rented) house". And if you try and equate the two, yes some people will get pissed off and angry about it because you already have so much compared to what they have. And I think you do get to have all that, and you get to campaign and vote to keep it. But the flip side of that is that if you venture outside of your bubble to "where the other half live" you might get shouted at occasionally.

If the worst thing that can come out of this election for you is your feelings get hurt by some online lefty socialists you're hugely privileged, and should recognise that. 

(And I say that as someone who is just as privileged myself, I'd just never dream of telling those less fortunate than me that they're not allowed to be angry).

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