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Just now, blackred said:

Agreed, but obviously it does rankle people on here when you tar them with your broad strokes, nothing wrong with using most rather than all.

Care to point out where I've said "all"? Or is that a part you've added in?

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Just now, eFestivals said:

Care to point out where I've said "all"? Or is that a part you've added in?

Not directly, no - but your post says 'no-one' and 'always', you do use absolutes a lot. Anyway, no more tone policing from me.

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6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'm very definitely NOT voting Corbyn. I can't support the brexit-wanting c**t, who's supporting worse things than the tories have done in the last 7 years.

What result would you like from the election though?

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3 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

What result would you like from the election though?

I'd like a Labour victory, but I'm not so stupid as to think there's any chance of one.

There's only one reason there's no chance of one, and my words here are absolutely fuck all of the cause.

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7 minutes ago, blackred said:

Not directly, no - but your post says 'no-one' and 'always', you do use absolutes a lot. Anyway, no more tone policing from me.

I said 'no one' when talking about what people say about their well-being.

I've never seen anyone say their well-being would be improved by being poorer. Have you?

Edited by eFestivals

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Just now, eFestivals said:

I said 'no one' when talking about what others say about their well-being.

I've never once seen anyone say their well-being would be improved by being poorer. Have you?

Yep, I'll say it right now - i should be taxed more, it's a disgrace that i've had reductions in the amount of tax i've paid despite being a high earner. I would happily be poorer and fully believe more money being spent on public services would improve my personal wellbeing. While this isn't a widely held belief it's not that niche either.

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3 minutes ago, blackred said:

Yep, I'll say it right now - i should be taxed more, it's a disgrace that i've had reductions in the amount of tax i've paid despite being a high earner. I would happily be poorer and fully believe more money being spent on public services would improve my personal wellbeing. While this isn't a widely held belief it's not that niche either.

That's my feeling too.

But, I suspect it's the same as yours. I don't feel doing that will make me poorer. So it's not the same thing.

 

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Just now, eFestivals said:

That's my feeling too.

But, I suspect it's the same as yours. I don't feel doing that will make me poorer. So it's not the same thing.

 

What's the definition of poorer here?

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1 hour ago, uscore said:

meh, this all still seems to boil down to the "wah, I'm not voting for Corbyn because no-one else is" self fulfilling prophesy.

Owen Jones has been pretty critical of Corbyn in the past and not unfairly, but at the moment he understands that to avoid a Tory landslide this isn't the time to do your best to destroy the most likely alternative.  Recriminations are inevitable AFTER the election, and before the next election campaign starts, but during an election campaign you have to pull together against the greater enemy.

The thing about this, though - Corbyn's already manoeuvring to make a pitch to keep his job based on the vote share he achieves. I have no desire to strengthen that card for him. I'm not even 100% sure it'd be different if I lived in a swing seat. I just can't bear the useless, self-absorbed gimp.

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4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

There's a sorry state because it's trying to do the same with lesser resources (tho actually, it's doing more with more resources, but not enough for the extra demands on those resources), and then there's the claim that was mentioned above that was claiming the tories want to shut down the NHS.

And maybe they even do want to shut down the NHS - I don't discount the possibility (tho with 85% support for the current set-up the likelihood of it happening is slim, i'd say) - but making that claim has ceased to have any effect, because people have been saying it for 35+ years and the NHS is still here. It's become the crappest version ever of 'project fear'.

The 'save the NHS' line wasn't working when that was a new-ish line, when Thatcher was in power who DID want to shut down the NHS and took more steps towards that aim than anyone since has. It didn't work then when things were clearer. It's idiots-ville to think it'll work now.

 

1.  Do you know anyone who works in the NHS who shares your view that things are OK?  

2.  Do you understand that things were terrible 35 years ago, but that much like education,  Blair and Brown spent money to make improvements?

3.  It got as low as 4.9% of gdp, labour increased it to 8% plus many capital improvements, since that point the changes to social care have been botched, resulting in needless suffering on a large scale and much increased demand, issues with bed blocking and the like. 

4. You're right that thatcher instigated changes, but then came pfi under Blair and that was continued under Cameron. 

5.  It's a fact that there are more elements of the NHS have now embraced the opportunity to offer a two tier service, hence some surgeries offering private appointments with differing service levels. 

6.  The changes to GP surgery hours and doctors contracts are, exactly like the education changes, the wrong answer to any perceived issue and waste some of those precious resources, as they'd rather carry out their ideologies than listen to experts. 

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19 minutes ago, blackred said:

What's the definition of poorer here?

You didn't say "my well being will be improved by me being poorer". You (essentially) said "I'd like my tax money money spent on X from which I'll [probably] get benefit".

(* 'probably' on the basis that we all use the NHS. Please don't take that as an attempt to put words in your mouth, it's just a follow-thru on what you're wanting to achieve by paying more for the NHS).

Mardy raised what we're now discussing, saying it shouldn't be about the economics. Your wanting more to the NHS is about the economics. 

Are you willing to give your money away to make yourself poorer to something from which you don't feel there's a benefit? Perhaps giving £100 to a millionaire to spend on a new pair of shoes? Now that would be 'poorer'.

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12 minutes ago, clarkete said:

1.  Do you know anyone who works in the NHS who shares your view that things are OK?  

2.  Do you understand that things were terrible 35 years ago, but that much like education,  Blair and Brown spent money to make improvements?

3.  It got as low as 4.9% of gdp, labour increased it to 8% plus many capital improvements, since that point the changes to social care have been botched, resulting in needless suffering on a large scale and much increased demand, issues with bed blocking and the like. 

4. You're right that thatcher instigated changes, but then came pfi under Blair and that was continued under Cameron. 

5.  It's a fact that there are more elements of the NHS have now embraced the opportunity to offer a two tier service, hence some surgeries offering private appointments with differing service levels. 

6.  The changes to GP surgery hours and doctors contracts are, exactly like the education changes, the wrong answer to any perceived issue and waste some of those precious resources, as they'd rather carry out their ideologies than listen to experts. 

1. where the fuck have I said "things are OK"?

And then you wonder why I post back to dispute what's been said. :lol:

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3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

1. where the fuck have I said "things are OK"?

And then you wonder why I post back to dispute what's been said. :lol:

The 'save the NHS' line wasn't working when that was a new-ish line, when Thatcher was in power who DID want to shut down the NHS and took more steps towards that aim than anyone since has. It didn't work then when things were clearer. It's idiots-ville to think it'll work now."

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8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

You didn't say "my well being will be improved by me being poorer". You (essentially) said "I'd like my tax money money spent on X from which I'll [probably] get benefit".

(* 'probably' on the basis that we all use the NHS. Please don't take that as an attempt to put words in your mouth, it's just a follow-thru on what you're wanting to achieve by paying more for the NHS).

Mardy raised what we're now discussing, saying it shouldn't be about the economics. Your wanting more to the NHS is about the economics. 

Are you willing to give your money away to make yourself poorer to something from which you don't feel there's a benefit? Perhaps giving £100 to a millionaire to spend on a new pair of shoes? Now that would be 'poorer'.

Ok, so we are onto the no true altruism fallacy. Yeah i'd happily see my money be spent on things I won't need to use if they improve the overall standard of living of people in this society,  and yes I would absolutely indirectly benefit from this in terms of a greater sense of wellbeing due to living in a 'better' society, the same couldn't be said for buying shoes for a millionaire. There is no endgame to this argument though, yes i want things that benefit me (non-financially), which includes helping others - the point is financial benefit isn't the be all and end all for everyone.

Edited by blackred

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1 minute ago, clarkete said:

The 'save the NHS' line wasn't working when that was a new-ish line, when Thatcher was in power who DID want to shut down the NHS and took more steps towards that aim than anyone since has. It didn't work then when things were clearer. It's idiots-ville to think it'll work now."

I can't see anything which says "things are OK" in that. Want to highlight it? :rolleyes:

 

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Just now, blackred said:

Ok, so we are onto the no true altruism fallacy. Yeah i'd happily see my money be spent on things I won't need to use if they improve the overall standard of living of people in this society,  and yes I would absolutely indirectly benefit from this in terms of a greater sense of wellbeing due to living in a 'better' society, the same couldn't be said for buying shoes for a millionaire. There is no endgame to this argument though, yes i want things that benefit me (non-financially), which includes helping others - the point is financial benefit isn't the be all and end all for everyone.

I don't disagree with any of that - but it's still about the economics.

We got here from comments talking about the opposite. As I pointed out, it's the economics which counts, because that's what enables everything.

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16 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I can't see anything which says "things are OK" in that. Want to highlight it? :rolleyes:

 

Saying it's idiotic to think it needs saving?

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7 minutes ago, clarkete said:

Saying it's idiotic to think it needs saving?

And you said I'm deflective...? :lol:

as I pointed out, people have been saying it needs saving for 35+ years, yet it's still here and nothing makes it look like it's going away any time soon - which is why the "save the NHS" line doesn't work.

Perhaps less empty bollocks and more truth might work better? "Improve the NHS", that sort of thing?

Edited by eFestivals

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16 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

And you said I'm deflective...? :lol:

as I pointed out, people have been saying it needs saving for 35+ years, yet it's still here and nothing makes it look like it's going away any time soon - which is why the "save the NHS" line doesn't work.

Perhaps less empty bollocks and more truth might work better? "Improve the NHS", that sort of thing?

I wrote a detailed response about why that argument about 35 years is a fallacy, if you can't be arsed to read it that's your choice. 

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19 minutes ago, clarkete said:

I wrote a detailed response about why that argument about 35 years is a fallacy, if you can't be arsed to read it that's your choice. 

that started with it's own fallacy. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, we can argue about a few years or not, and you can keep making the false claim that the NHS needs 'saving' or not, but neither of those gets anyone anywhere. 

What gets talked about the 'privatisation' thing is mostly bollocks. GPs have always been privatised in the exact same way, but no one ever campaigned to abolish GPs.

The NHS problem is one of deciding the level of resources it should have and the best use of those resources, and fuck all about 'saving' until such time as someone is proposing that healthcare free at the point of access ends.

Because people want to make the false argument about 'saving' it's giving the tories a free pass over what they're really doing.

Edited by eFestivals

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8 hours ago, eFestivals said:

that started with it's own fallacy. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, we can argue about a few years or not, and you can keep making the false claim that the NHS needs 'saving' or not, but neither of those gets anyone anywhere. 

What gets talked about the 'privatisation' thing is mostly bollocks. GPs have always been privatised in the exact same way, but no one ever campaigned to abolish GPs.

The NHS problem is one of deciding the level of resources it should have and the best use of those resources, and fuck all about 'saving' until such time as someone is proposing that healthcare free at the point of access ends.

Because people want to make the false argument about 'saving' it's giving the tories a free pass over what they're really doing.

It wasn't me that brought up the subject of privatisation, I was pointing out that the significant factor in it needing saving is the poor percentage of GDP and its continued downward trend under each tory administration.  

You threw in something about "when Thatcher was in power who DID want to shut down the NHS and took more steps towards that aim than anyone since has".

You haven't shed any light on these mysterious steps that she took which you believe have not been continued by her successors.  although clearly my opinion differs.

What do you want out of the NHS?  I'm obviously not clear.

I'm sure you know of the tory Sarah Wollaston, who used to be a doctor before an MP.  To her credit she's been pretty direct with her opinion about the NHS and Hunt and May's lack of honesty about the current funding levels, even being quoted in the daily fail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4120282/Sarah-Wollaston-accuses-Theresa-dishonesty-10billion-NHS-pledge.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sarah-wollaston-nhs-funding-cuts_uk_5816f628e4b0ccfc956304be


Oh yes and I believe the plan before the election was called was to cut a further 20 billion quid over the next couple of years.

Edited by clarkete

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Not sure how anyone could say Corbyn is wanting to implement policies worse than the Tories *ever* have... not sure how £10 minimum wage, no tuition fees, better NHS funding etc is worse than starving disabled people to death and leaving children in war zones our government helped create lol 

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I think the hatred for Corbyn really does boil down to people subconsciously taking in what murdoch media has been pushing for years. It's been so relentless it's hard not to get sucked in even if you don't read those rags 

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12 minutes ago, MadScientist said:

I think the hatred for Corbyn really does boil down to people subconsciously taking in what murdoch media has been pushing for years. It's been so relentless it's hard not to get sucked in even if you don't read those rags 

Yeah because god forbid anyone actually has independent opinions not moulded by the media. My main issue with him is that he's a god-awful public speaker. A) I've thought this since first hearing him speak at a hustings which took place before the press started lynching him, and b ) his god-awful public speaking style is barely ever mentioned by the press.

Edited by Zac Quinn

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3 minutes ago, Zac Quinn said:

Yeah because god forbid anyone actually has independent opinions not moulded by the media. My main issue with him is that he's a god-awful public speaker, and a) I've thought this since first hearing him speak at a hustings which took place before the press started lynching him, and b ) his god-awful public speaking style is barely ever mentioned by the press.

Is he that bad a public speaker though?

compared to May? Or certainly Milliband or Brown? 

I know these hardly the elite speakers to be compared to, but I'd say he comes across quite well compared to people's recent memories of PM candidates 

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