Taking kids out of school...

[DeanoL]

But what is the difference between a kid being off school with flu for a few days, and a kid missing a few days to stand at the Pyramid? kids get ill all the time and a kid that catches flu in winter does not by default have his education and career prospects ruined.

There's no difference. But the kid going to Glastonbury isn't going to miraculously stop him being sick is it? Teachers already have to deal with kids missing an average of a week through illness, which means catching them up afterwards. Adding another week in holidays to that doubles it.

If you've got a hectic job and you work through lunch one day a week to keep on top of things, if your boss turns up and goes "well, you already work unpaid through lunch one day a week, so you must be happy to do it every day" you're not going to say "yeah, fair enough".

Edited October 26, 2015 by DeanoL

[DeanoL]

well you quite plainly don't have the right to do what you want with your kid. 

As for the 'evenings and weekends ' comment, even then it's not your time.  There's homework and don't think about anything really weird like dying your hair, as you might be refused access to school!

Yes you do. You have the complete right to do what you want as long as you fulfill minimum educational standards. If you don't like the school system, you can opt out of it, either via private schools or home-schooling. If you can't or won't do that, then the state school system exists instead, but using that comes with certain requirements, including taking holidays at specific times, so the system will work.

Access to free education isn't some inalienable right that you should have however and whenever you want it. It's a privilege that comes with certain, not unreasonable, rules if you want to take advantage of it.

[DeanoL]

100% correct response and attitude, the school is being employed by YOU (through your taxes) to teach your children, your kids are not their property, you don't need 'permission' to do anything with your own children, the law says they must be educated, and as long as they are, they have no right to dictate every aspect of your life.

Ugh, no they're not being employed by you. Your taxes are paying for a system that offers education to everybody, universally. For that system to work, at the current level of funding, certain rules have to made (consistent holidays times, etc). That's how it works, you're not paying for your kid to be educated, you're paying for every kid to be educated.

[stuwilky]

Is the education system better since the "10 day discretionary holiday" rule was removed in September 2013?

[DeanoL]

huh...? is there some logic there that I'm missing

Teachers have to do extra work to catch up kids who are ill. It's a pain. You're suggesting that because they do that extra work, they should be fine with doing a load more extra work to catch-up kids who go on holiday too.

It's amazing how entirely unable people are to look past them and theirs to see this from the point of view of anyone else.

[DeanoL]

"You have the complete right to do what you want as long as ....."

....so you don't have any complete right

It's not an inalienable right, it's the law. And if you're not in a position to make use of private or home schooling, then you HAVE to send your kid to school. It's your opinion that that rules aren't unreasonable. Others, including myself, disagree.

Yes, you're not allowed to abuse your kid by not educating them at all. So of course there's an exception. Didn't think I outright had to say that child neglect and abuse is wrong but apparently so. If you're not willing to home school, and you're not willing to pay for a private school, AND you don't want to abide by the rules for state schools, then I might suggest you're best not having a kid in this country.

[acidstorm523]

Guys! It's getting a bit out of hand isn't it?? 

Deanol, you can't seriously mean that taking our kids out for a few days, especially when they are otherwise high attenders, never later and high achievers is actually the most selfish thing in the world? I think a little perspective has been lost? There are all sorts of troubled kids..ones who are persistently late, I'll, never do homework on time etc etc. A few days for Glastonbury surely isn't crime number one that means we shouldn't have kids?

even you admitted that you don't follow every rule in life..who the hell does?! So if you can pick and chose a few, so can we, without making us selfish people who don't give a toss about teachers?

[DeanoL]

so taking your kid out of school for a few days is neglect and abuse now. We took our kids out of school for Glastonbury. There was nothing neglectful or abusive about it. Are you mad?

That's not what I said. I said not educating your kids at all is abuse. How you do that is up to you: home-taught, private, or state-educated.I was simply responding to your claim that you don't have the right to do whatever you want with your own children. You absolutely do. With utterly obvious exceptions that do include providing them with some sort of eduction. I thought that was obvious, but you seemed to be complaining about it.

Now, there are many options you have when it comes to choosing how you educate your kids. If you choose the state school system, then it's free and someone else does it for you, but the flip side of that are a few minor inconveniences over when you can go on holiday.

[DeanoL]

Guys! It's getting a bit out of hand isn't it?? 

Deanol, you can't seriously mean that taking our kids out for a few days, especially when they are otherwise high attenders, never later and high achievers is actually the most selfish thing in the world?

It's not the most selfish thing in the world, no. But it all builds up. You taking a good kid out that's a high achiever might only be a minor inconvenience for a teacher. But... well if I'm in a shop and there's pick and mix and I nick one and pop it in my mouth. Hardly crime of the century is it? No big deal. But if everyone who passes through that shop does the same thing, there's no pick and mix left and they've lost a lot of money. So it's not okay for me to do it, because either then everyone does it, and Woolworths goes bankrupt again, or somehow I'm deciding that I'm more important than anyone else and I should have free pick and mix, and they shouldn't.

And remember, everyone will argue that their trip is 'educational' and that their kid is a 'high achiever'. And if they get told 'no' they start complaining that it's not fair. And you think on a case-by-case basis a Glastonbury trip would ever get the okay?! It can be educational, but so can Magaluf if you go to the right places. But no-one will ever believe that's why you're going. And that will be ammo that other parents whose holidays are rejected will throw back at the school - "you let Toby go to the drug festival capital of the UK, and I can't go to Greece?!".

And of course, every application, every complaint, every appeal against the decision, every dealing with the press after some parent gets the story in the local paper... all using up the already maxed-out teacher time.

[dizzymoo]

 

It's not the most selfish thing in the world, no. But it all builds up. You taking a good kid out that's a high achiever might only be a minor inconvenience for a teacher. But... well if I'm in a shop and there's pick and mix and I nick one and pop it in my mouth. Hardly crime of the century is it? No big deal. But if everyone who passes through that shop does the same thing, there's no pick and mix left and they've lost a lot of money. So it's not okay for me to do it, because either then everyone does it, and Woolworths goes bankrupt again, or somehow I'm deciding that I'm more important than anyone else and I should have free pick and mix, and they shouldn't.

And remember, everyone will argue that their trip is 'educational' and that their kid is a 'high achiever'. And if they get told 'no' they start complaining that it's not fair. And you think on a case-by-case basis a Glastonbury trip would ever get the okay?! It can be educational, but so can Magaluf if you go to the right places. But no-one will ever believe that's why you're going. And that will be ammo that other parents whose holidays are rejected will throw back at the school - "you let Toby go to the drug festival capital of the UK, and I can't go to Greece?!".

And of course, every application, every complaint, every appeal against the decision, every dealing with the press after some parent gets the story in the local paper... all using up the already maxed-out teacher time.

Under the old system where each request was allowed to be judged on its merits we were always granted permission (by both primary and secondary) to take our kids out of school for Glastonbury,  because it was seen as educational, with a positive effect on their learning. The current rules actively prevent my children's school from allowing something they were happy to permit before.

I don't  see how the pick and mix analogy works - this isn't about depriving the school of teaching time, or pleading for special treatment, it's about acknowledging education doesn't only happen in school and  there should be reasonable and appropriate discretion to allow parents to do this without the constant control of school.  Trips organised by schools themselves are accepted  to be enriching experiences for children, even when they involve a few children missing a week or more (and all the catching up that requires).

By the way, there is no right to appeal against a school's decision to refuse authorisation for absence - yet another reason why the new rules are clumsy and ill thought out.

 

[acidstorm523]

It's not the most selfish thing in the world, no. But it all builds up. You taking a good kid out that's a high achiever might only be a minor inconvenience for a teacher. But... well if I'm in a shop and there's pick and mix and I nick one and pop it in my mouth. Hardly crime of the century is it? No big deal. But if everyone who passes through that shop does the same thing, there's no pick and mix left and they've lost a lot of money. So it's not okay for me to do it, because either then everyone does it, and Woolworths goes bankrupt again, or somehow I'm deciding that I'm more important than anyone else and I should have free pick and mix, and they shouldn't.

And remember, everyone will argue that their trip is 'educational' and that their kid is a 'high achiever'. And if they get told 'no' they start complaining that it's not fair. And you think on a case-by-case basis a Glastonbury trip would ever get the okay?! It can be educational, but so can Magaluf if you go to the right places. But no-one will ever believe that's why you're going. And that will be ammo that other parents whose holidays are rejected will throw back at the school - "you let Toby go to the drug festival capital of the UK, and I can't go to Greece?!".

And of course, every application, every complaint, every appeal against the decision, every dealing with the press after some parent gets the story in the local paper... all using up the already maxed-out teacher time.

yes, it is a total waste of school time to have to try and enforce this, and not their place in society anyway. They are educators not prison officers. 

I'm sorry, but I just cannot agree with you..you sound very rigid in your thinking. Yes, it all adds up -  that's life. We don't universally adhere to rules and life runs in some smooth trajectory. Ultimately, I am free to live my life, whilst taking the rules into consideration, as is everyone else including teachers. And please don't tell me schools never bend the rules to their advantage! 

I ask you once again..you previously in this thread admitted that you do not follow every rule..so which ones do you consider ok to break?

[DeanoL]

I don't  see how the pick and mix analogy works - this isn't about depriving the school of teaching time, or pleading for special treatment, it's about acknowledging education doesn't only happen in school and  there should be reasonable and appropriate discretion to allow parents to do this without the constant control of school.  Trips organised by schools themselves are accepted  to be enriching experiences for children, even when they involve a few children missing a week or more (and all the catching up that requires).

School trips work because a large number of children are out at the same time, so catch ups are easier to organise.

There is a reasonable and appropriate consideration given to the fact that education happens outside of school: weekends and school holidays. Yes, sometimes one or two things may fall outside of those dates, and not be replicatable. But not many. There are many, many other festivals that happen during the summer holidays, many that will achieve the same 'educational' aims as Glastonbury. If it's truly about giving your kid that experience, the alternative exists.

And however you slice it, you are asking for special treatment. The kid can't catch up on their own without some input from the teachers.

[DeanoL]

Ultimately, I am free to live my life, whilst taking the rules into consideration, as is everyone else including teachers. 

Totally. And if I'm talking to someone at the festival with kids I'm not going to suddenly have a go at them about it. If you want to take your kids out because Glastonbury means that much to you then just do it.

What bothers me is people here getting outraged that schools don't want them to, are trying to stop it, or are threatening fines. They have good reasons to be doing that, which I've explained here.

It's not a stupid rule, nor is it a 'victimless' crime. It does cause more work for teachers, it's not scalable if everyone does it, there are solid reasons it's being enforced. Now, if you're aware of that, consider that, and decide that Glastonbury matters enough you're going to go with the selfish option, then by all means do! We are all selfish from time to time!

I'm just tired of people using discussions like this to try and justify it to themselves and convince each other that it isn't.

[Mardy]

Great post there, DeanoL, especially that first paragraph. 

[acidstorm523]

I don't even try to justify Glastonbury as educational..it is a wonderful thing, and for me, no other festival comes close, so I can't have that same experience elsewhere. It is also part of my history that I want to share with my kids. But no question about it, we go and have a totally amazing time! They saw the Dali Lama onstage with Patti Smith last year, that was about as educational as it got, but I'm not going to be writing to the school with a list explaining it as an educational event personally. My kids won't be attending a quasi school at a festival. 

 

I do think it is a stupid law/rule - the world worked fine without it.it is a very recent addition, and the reasons that you say are essential for the rule being applied were not seemingly causing a big problem before. Nor has anything been resolved by its application. The kids who are not in school for serious reasons remain in the same position.  But I certainly don't blame the schools for it. This is Tory government at their finest stupidity. My argument is not with the school, but I do think it important to make a stand when even most teachers and the two heads I have spoken with feel that their hands are tied, and this law is having a negative impact on the relationships between school and parent. 

[acidstorm523]

Apart from a massive dose of life education of course - the most important one of all.:)

[GlastoLuvvinJock]

My friend brought his 12 year old lad this year and did it all official with the school. The school gave full permission and even provided him with some English & RE homework based on what he was going to experience at the festival. They asked him to attend an after school class 2 times a week for a few weeks either side of the festival to get his work up to date (he suddenly developed a liking for making an effort with his work as a result).

it showed me that contrary to what is written the schools/local authorities hands aren't tied and they can allow leniency in sensible cases where kids have already got a good attendance record.

on the subject of the fines though one thing that does wind me up is that fines for kids in a 2 parent family are double what a single parent family have to pay. Absolute nonsense policy that needs binning asap. They should also hanmer the scumbags who repeatedly fail to get their kids to school because of attitude/laziness and not make an example out of others who like to do things honestly and by the book. 

[acidstorm523]

The issue was debated in parliament following a petition. One example 

"

John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I congratulate the hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay (Steve Double) on securing this important debate, which is not entirely about tourism in Cornwall—it goes much wider than that.

I declare an interest. I never took any of my four children out of school during term time. That probably had something to do with the fact that I was a teacher. My employer would have regarded it rather dimly.

26 Oct 2015 : Column 9WH

There is a legitimate debate to be had about how much time a pupil needs to spend in school and how valuable that time is. In life there is always a trade-off between quantity and quality. The Minister can point to the fact that the Chinese spend more time in school than we do and make progress rapidly. We reach the same point, but they get to it somewhat earlier. University technical colleges have longer school days and their pupils make more rapid progress, although I do not know whether they get further in the long run. Against that we can set the example of the great public schools of England, which sometimes have ridiculously long summer holidays. If a pupil is in the cricket team, they are hardly in during the summer term anyway. Their results appear to be quite commendable, so we cannot draw general conclusions.

I am rather sad at the general perception that it is ultimately damaging to take children out of school at all times and on all occasions, except in very exceptional circumstances, which certainly do not include holidays. Most parents accept that school is valuable and important and want their child to be there. If they put in a request to take their child out for a time, they do so reluctantly. The Government struggle with this, but I think most parents are reasonably good judges of their own child’s interests and that most requests are put in only at the margins of the school year. These days, pretty much all parents juggle their working life with school time. If their children are at multiple schools with holidays at different times, they find the task formidable.

What is to be done if a parent feels that it would be desirable and not too damaging if their child was out of school during term time? I suggest that the answer for the school and for parents is simply to allow flexibility, which was the generally agreed answer until quite recently. There are exceptional circumstances, which will sometimes involve holidays or other events of family importance. That, however, does not appear to be the view of the Department for Education and Ofsted, which seem to take the rather Gradgrind approach that a child should never miss an hour in school, otherwise the consequences might be fatal.

As I said, I was a teacher. I have not taught for 14 years now, but I had a fairly long teaching career. I have to say that not every hour in school is that educational. Towards the end of the summer term, when exams are done and people are tired, and when the days are hot and the pupils sleepy and looking forward to the summer, one cannot always say that time in school is absolutely precious and could never be forfeited under any circumstances. Equally, most holidays are educationally very productive. After all, that is why so many schools organise holidays. Strangely enough, they sometimes start such holidays towards the end of school time because they recognise the benefits they bring to pupils.

Children improve on holidays. They certainly improve faster on holiday than they do in the last few weeks of school. I recently had the benefit of taking all five of my grandchildren on a holiday to France for two weeks. We did not go around museums, nor did I lecture them about things such as French literature or test their maths, but they came back far more developed after two weeks away than they had after the previous term. I could actually see the difference. They are small children and the development that took place was there for all to see.

26 Oct 2015 : Column 10WH

The Minister will undoubtedly say that there is an anxiety that for some children there will be some sort of tail-off in the summer. There is a tail-off among certain groups because of the long summer holidays, which some people see as something of an anachronism. Real holidays, subject to the headteacher deciding that that is what is taking place, are life-enhancing and educational. How would we distinguish between real holidays and school-shirking or lesson-skipping, which the Minister would legitimately fear? I do not have a clear answer to that, but I am certain that if we want to make that sort of judgment, it should be done not through the DFE or Ofsted, but based on local information. Local schools should be allowed to make their decisions. We certainly must not poison the relationship between the school, the parents and the child by imposing fines.

A common-sense solution is being urged, through the petition and eloquently by the Members who have spoken so far. I hope that the Minister, having seen some of the errors that the Government have made through their Gradgrind approach, will review the legislation and commend a more sensible regime to schools."

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT 

 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmhansrd/cm151026/halltext/151026h0001.htm#15102614000047

 

[DeanoL]

 They asked him to attend an after school class 2 times a week for a few weeks either side of the festival to get his work up to date (he suddenly developed a liking for making an effort with his work as a result).

Just to be clear, I'm totally in favour of all schools being funded to the point that they can do this. We're just not at that point, and any official legislation on this sort of things needs to cater for all schools.

[acidstorm523]

Don't most schools already have after school classes?

our secondary school has open after school clubs for the main subjects. There is one teacher there, and any year child can go and get support in a mixed group.

[dondo]

We tried to get tickets for next year's festival but with no success with the intention of taking our 2 out of school.  My daughter though did say to my wife whilst I was trying to get them (they had gone out that morning) that she hoped I wasn't success as she didn't want to risk losing her 100% attendance.  That is probably down to the fact that the head is a stickler (and then some) about term time absence so he's obviously impacted on my daughter's take on things.

We'll still take them to festivals (as we've done already) but would just love to take them to Glastonbury but 2016 was probably the last chance due to the years my children will be in after that

[Stave_1974]

This http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/school-holiday-fines is an interesting read if anyone's considering it...

Legal Loophole maybe, providing your child has good attendance!!!

[koj]

We took our 3 children out of school for 4 days last year, I have no issue with doing it, they all had attendance record of >98% and Cornwall Council don’t seem to bother fining anyone unlike other parts of the country.

My eldest actually got a 100% attendance certificate and prize at the end of the year because they calculated the attendance and wrote the certificates at the start of Glastonbury week!

[chrismac1986]

one point I think often gets overlooked in this debate is that, if successful education is so reliant on time spent in school, why do we still live in a world where schools have, what 12-14 weeks holiday a year?

why do schools finish at three but give an hour or so of homework each day? Surely it would be better for the child to do this work with a highly qualified teacher on hand to answer any questions and give guidance, rather than an unqualified parent?

if time in school is THAT important, lets cut school holidays to four weeks a year and bank holidays? Let's even just halve the 12-14 weeks to six or seven. I'm sure this would get huge buy in from government, Ofsted, councils and teachers alike given they regard time in school so highly.

if one week off has such a dramatic impact on success, what is the difference between a child who has 5 days off on holiday, or 5 days sickness. Of course the reason to take the days are different, but are we saying a bout of tonsillitis can destroy a Childs future?

finally, a colleague of mine has a child who plays cricket at county level, and another who's child plays junior football for a premier league club. Both are given weekly time out of school and instead of being told of the dangers the school not only agrees but supports it and applauds it...how strange.

I don't have a child of school age so the above is not driven by personal hatred to the law, just pointing out its obvious flaws

[DeanoL]

one point I think often gets overlooked in this debate is that, if successful education is so reliant on time spent in school, why do we still live in a world where schools have, what 12-14 weeks holiday a year?

why do schools finish at three but give an hour or so of homework each day? Surely it would be better for the child to do this work with a highly qualified teacher on hand to answer any questions and give guidance, rather than an unqualified parent?

Yep, we should put more money into schools to do that, but most people wouldn't support the rise in tax that would allow it.

As to the rest, the breaks aren't about the impact on the individual child. It's the impact on the teacher and the kids as a collective.

Say you're teaching three connected concepts that lead into each other in week 1, week 2 and week 3. If a third of the kids miss week 1, you have to catch them up in week 2, while teaching the kids who were there the week 1 stuff, and trying to get them up to speed. Then a third go away in week 2, so in week 3 you have to teach the group that were there for both weeks, the group that missed week 1, and the group that missed week 2 and so on. Faced with that, the obvious response is "wouldn't it be so much easier if all the kids went on holiday at the same time?" and that's why school holidays exist.

But people will constantly fail to grasp that, because it requires seeing past what's purely best for their kid, and looking at what is best for teachers, and by extension all the children as a whole. And parents tend to be remarkably selfish when it comes to their kids.