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Might need to not let farron talk on the election  trail if he's going to compare fighting against slavery to fighting against gay rights...

There was a report a year ago interviewing farrons election team, which says him not being able to shut down the homophobia stuff cost them a few seats.

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Edited by zahidf

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Is the north a lot more Leave than the South as well? Maybe the papers confuse the Midlands with the north...

 

 

Edited by zahidf

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12 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Is the north a lot more Leave than the South as well?

 

 

if you fiddle the figures to exclude London but include Leeds and Manchester and Birmingham yes but it doesn't mean anything. We already knew remain was strongest in the wealthier cities. People who either live where the jobs are or can move to where the jobs are (more likely to be immigrants with no family ties to an area in this country who logically would settle where most jobs are) voted remain.

Edited by lost

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15 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Is the north a lot more Leave than the South as well? Maybe the papers confuse the Midlands with the north...

 

 

I think it depends where in the north you are looking.  I suspect torys are probably not looking at Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield and Newcastle to make big games, but some of the smaller/less affluent towns and cities.  Look at the last election and they were picking up seats in Mansfield, Stoke and Walsall.  I suspect they will be looking at northern seats with a similar profile.

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2 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

The trouble is Lib Dems going into the next election with a more remainy policy puts labour in a very tough position.

Sure, I mean pretty much any GE situation puts labour in a very tough position. Wherever they gain votes regarding the EU, they lose others. If labour backed revoking A50 I'd probably vote for someone else where I'd usually vote for them.

I honestly just see the Tories coming out on top anyway. Cummings hasn't failed much so far... He certainly knows how to run a campaign 

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There's a proportion of the electorate that indulge is parliamentary theatrics... I'd wager most of the rest of the country couldn't give a shit about prorogation. 

From the people I speak to (not scientific by any measure) in pubs etc., a lot of people feel like the way parliament has acted in the last few years is discraceful. I can't say I disagree 

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15 minutes ago, rock the clock said:

a lot of people feel like the way parliament has acted in the last few years is discraceful. I can't say I disagree 

that's true, but it's all about where the 'disgraceful' part starts.

For me it starts with the unicorns of the leave campaign (or perhaps Cameron's poorly formulated ref that allowed it).

Edited by eFestivals

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6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

that's true, but it's all about where the 'disgraceful' part starts.

For me it starts with the unicorns of the leave campaign (or perhaps Cameron's poorly formulated ref that allowed it).

Yeah... Referenda aren't usually a good idea. That's where the problem started. Though we can't avoid that we did vote to leave - I accept that the vote was dodgy, but parliament trusted it enough to vote to trigger A50 with a huge majority. And again, most of the country went and voted in 2017 for parties that were commited to brexit. 

I'm not against a second ref (revoking with no plan for another vote is discraceful imo) but I do believe that a second ref wouldn't necessarily help, and I'd expect leave to win again.

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4 minutes ago, rock the clock said:

And again, most of the country went and voted in 2017 for parties that were commited to brexit. 

that, I think, merely shows that most people were prepared to accept the result.

If the brexiters had voted for brexit it'd all be done by now.

5 minutes ago, rock the clock said:

I'm not against a second ref (revoking with no plan for another vote is discraceful imo) but I do believe that a second ref wouldn't necessarily help, and I'd expect leave to win again.

I think there really needs to be another vote to cancel brexit, but as i don't think that would solve much I'm also happy for revoke - and don't forget, that's more supported (as a place to be after sorting brexit) than no-deal is.

Leave might win again, but i'm happy to take that risk with a ref. I'm far less happy for it to be sorted out via a GE as that will have Johnson claiming a no-deal mandate with 35% of the vote.

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The most obvious issue is... What's the question on the ballot paper? 

Emily Thornberry was on question time the other day speaking about their plan, which was her agreeing a deal with Brussels, only to campaign for remain in a referendum against that deal. 

You just can't satisfy the electorate with a binary vote. 

I have no idea what the answer is tbh, but it just seems that every option ahead of us is going to  divide us more 

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17 minutes ago, rock the clock said:

You just can't satisfy the electorate with a binary vote. 

yeah you can. Properly define what the options are, and the electorate make a choice about which they want.

The problem is when it allows votes for unicorns.

18 minutes ago, rock the clock said:

What's the question on the ballot paper?

I'm easy on that one, but am quite happy to have three options (remain, deal, no-deal) and AV voting. It's nothing beyond people's comprehension.

 

19 minutes ago, rock the clock said:

Emily Thornberry was on question time the other day speaking about their plan, which was her agreeing a deal with Brussels, only to campaign for remain in a referendum against that deal. 

yep, the fatal flaw - or (probably) from Corbyn's view the redemption - is that 'Labour deal'.

No one negotiates a deal and then recommends it's rejected - and it's possibly the case that Corbyn's support will win it for brexit when it wouldn't win otherwise.

Then again Corbyn's duplicitousness - and Corbyn too - might get exposed and rejected with that, because he'd be asking people to vote in favour of a deal he'd been voting against in the HoC.

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24 minutes ago, rock the clock said:

it just seems that every option ahead of us is going to  divide us more 

there is no easy way to come back together, and there's no satisfying the brexit nutters even with a no-deal brexit.  These things need to be kept in mind, because there's no point looking for the perfect answer, it doesn't exist. 

Instead look for the answers that work out well for UK prosperity, and where the problems of brexit go way the easiest - and that's actually revoke. 

Yep, there'll be some gobby brexiters because of it - but that's actually no different to how things have been for the last 30+ years anyway.

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1 hour ago, rock the clock said:

There's a proportion of the electorate that indulge is parliamentary theatrics... I'd wager most of the rest of the country couldn't give a shit about prorogation. 

From the people I speak to (not scientific by any measure) in pubs etc., a lot of people feel like the way parliament has acted in the last few years is discraceful. I can't say I disagree 

Most people in the pubs are stupid I guess. No deal brexit won't mean it goes away 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

there is no easy way to come back together, and there's no satisfying the brexit nutters even with a no-deal brexit.  These things need to be kept in mind, because there's no point looking for the perfect answer, it doesn't exist. 

Instead look for the answers that work out well for UK prosperity, and where the problems of brexit go way the easiest - and that's actually revoke. 

Yep, there'll be some gobby brexiters because of it - but that's actually no different to how things have been for the last 30+ years anyway.

Only issue with revoke without a refenerdum is that if a hard right Tory govt does get In, they can leave without a referendum

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18 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

yeah you can. Properly define what the options are, and the electorate make a choice about which they want.

The problem is when it allows votes for unicorns.

I'm easy on that one, but am quite happy to have three options (remain, deal, no-deal) and AV voting. It's nothing beyond people's comprehension.

I agree. The reason Leave were able to win as they did was because there was much less on their side to scrutinize compared to remain. They could promise a whole lot more. 

I'd also take your version of the vote, but depending on the agreed deal I wouldn't know what to vote for. 

What matters less is what option is 'better', it's more about how effective a Remain campaign can be. Last time it was a shambles, can we trust them to get it together? 

One things for sure, the "normal people are stupid and didn't know what they voted for" schtick isn't the way forward. 

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2 minutes ago, rock the clock said:

They could promise a whole lot more. 

They promised everything, including the contradictory.

It's actually the brexiters who've destroyed brexit.

3 minutes ago, rock the clock said:

but depending on the agreed deal I wouldn't know what to vote for. 

Wouldn't you?

Why would you vote for a deal that was demonstrably worse than the status quo? Which is what all options apart from remaining are.

Remember, your vote is to represent your view, it's not meant to be a sop to others to not upset them.

5 minutes ago, rock the clock said:

Last time it was a shambles, can we trust them to get it together? 

probably not if Corbyn's still around. He'll do the weak campaigning again to suggest it's OK to vote out, and probably take another holiday for a quarter of the campaign. ;) 

6 minutes ago, rock the clock said:

One things for sure, the "normal people are stupid and didn't know what they voted for" schtick isn't the way forward. 

And yet that's what happened for many - and it does need to be pointed out.

We had are resident brexit nutter @Lad complaining the other day that the EU and Ireland won't roll over and do what the UK wants. It needs to be pointed out that the fault there isn't a failure of our politicians, or even the EU or Ireland being unfair - the problem is with his idea that others have to do what the UK wants.

It needs to be pointed out when appropriate rather than ignored, but not go in hard with it. The stupid are determined to remain stupid anyway.

 

 

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3 hours ago, zahidf said:

Most people in the pubs are stupid I guess. No deal brexit won't mean it goes away 

 

 

Have you ever been in a pub? 

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8 hours ago, zahidf said:

Just London's craft beer pubs.

so that's a no then. No self-respecting real pub would sell that over-priced shite.

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Is this the compromise? I always thought a deal with a confirmatory referendum and with remain on the ballot would have a majority in this parliament.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

it has happened now :D

 

 

Ha ha ha 

Going to appeal on Tuesday at the supreme court

 

 

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