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1 minute ago, kaosmark2 said:

Jez has undermined himself. 

Be that as it may, as labour leader the party and mps would be mental to act like that before an election 

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1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I don't really like knocking Greta cos her heart is clearly in the right place, but I reckon she's made a bad error taking a very expensive and resource-hungry private yacht to the US.

Cos i reckon a usage per-person measure against resources for that yacht (including its building) would be waaaay more than her getting on a high-use designed-with-efficiency-in-mind plane.

And at the same time, it's helping to reinforce the idea that we can be green and still have high levels of personal consumption like a private yacht when reducing personal consumption - any and all consumption - is the greatest* change we can each make.

(* except stopping having kids. Nothing gets close to that for environmental impact).

We don't need bad gestures, we need facts about what is best and the bottle to change our lives to do what's best.

Isn't it solar powered and completely carbon neutral ? And isn't she using it to raise awareness?

Just seems to be the usual bad faith suspects having a go

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1 hour ago, zahidf said:

Isn't it solar powered and completely carbon neutral ? And isn't she using it to raise awareness?

Just seems to be the usual bad faith suspects having a go

I don't think she's using to it raise awareness. She's using to deflect the inevitable criticism she would get if she travelled by any other means. The sort of criticism Harry and Megan are rightly getting in the press.

I wonder how she'll get back? Solar powered plane maybe? 

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3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I don't really like knocking Greta cos her heart is clearly in the right place, but I reckon she's made a bad error taking a very expensive and resource-hungry private yacht to the US.

Cos i reckon a usage per-person measure against resources for that yacht (including its building) would be waaaay more than her getting on a high-use designed-with-efficiency-in-mind plane.

And at the same time, it's helping to reinforce the idea that we can be green and still have high levels of personal consumption like a private yacht when reducing personal consumption - any and all consumption - is the greatest* change we can each make.

(* except stopping having kids. Nothing gets close to that for environmental impact).

We don't need bad gestures, we need facts about what is best and the bottle to change our lives to do what's best.

It appears to me that Greta gets fiercely criticised whatever she does.

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1 hour ago, zahidf said:

Hammond and starmer have been talking loads. As I said, it may be the only option. 

I don't think there is a legitimate worry that Jez would refuse to leave number 10 after requesting an extension.  The remainers can withdraw his support if they did 

The tory rebels/lib Dems may say the only option to get the numbers is a consensus candidate.

Labour may say the only option is to put Jez in as PM.

Who is in the position to decide what is the only option? You could say the Lib Dems are wrong not to stop no deal Brexit by working with Corbyn. You could equally say the labour front bench are wrong not to stop Brexit by supporting a candidate of unity. At the end of the day both sides are playing politics and can make an argument why they are correct, it's why I think we will end up in stalemate.

Also who is to say everyone wants a general election. What if you think (and I suspect a large proportion do) both Jez and Boris are bad for the country. Would a Tory rebel vote themselves out of a job? Would a labour mp deselected by Momentum vote themselves out of a job?

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Well, that's knife crime sorted, then...

 

 

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1 hour ago, LJS said:

It appears to me that Greta gets fiercely criticised whatever she does.

That's what happens when you stick your head above the parapet. The girl won't be able to do anything now without people checking her carbon footprint.

Not necessarily a bad thing IMO

Edited by Ommadawn

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2 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

The tory rebels/lib Dems may say the only option to get the numbers is a consensus candidate.

Labour may say the only option is to put Jez in as PM.

Who is in the position to decide what is the only option? You could say the Lib Dems are wrong not to stop no deal Brexit by working with Corbyn. You could equally say the labour front bench are wrong not to stop Brexit by supporting a candidate of unity. At the end of the day both sides are playing politics and can make an argument why they are correct, it's why I think we will end up in stalemate.

Also who is to say everyone wants a general election. What if you think (and I suspect a large proportion do) both Jez and Boris are bad for the country. Would a Tory rebel vote themselves out of a job? Would a labour mp deselected by Momentum vote themselves out of a job?

With 11 MPs, the Lib Dems don't get to choose who is the Labour leader nor who in Labour they work with. The Labour leader does. It's that simple. If they don't want to work with Labour to stop No Deal, that's on them.

Jez has made it clear he only wants to be PM to stop no deal brexit and call a general election. 

 

Edited by zahidf

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3 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

I don't think she's using to it raise awareness. She's using to deflect the inevitable criticism she would get if she travelled by any other means. The sort of criticism Harry and Megan are rightly getting in the press.

I wonder how she'll get back? Solar powered plane maybe? 

She avoids flying because she knows how bad faith idiots on the right act.

 

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6 hours ago, zahidf said:

With 11 MPs, the Lib Dems don't get to choose who is the Labour leader nor who in Labour they work with. The Labour leader does. It's that simple. If they don't want to work with Labour to stop No Deal, that's on them.

Jez has made it clear he only wants to be PM to stop no deal brexit and call a general election. 

 

It's a numbers game the Lib Dems can choose what they want to choose. A small amount of MPs can hold influence if they can help another party make up numbers, as the DUP have shown.

Jez may want an election. What if other MPs see a government of unity and no election as the way forward? Politicians on all sides are playing politics.

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27 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

It's a numbers game the Lib Dems can choose what they want to choose. A small amount of MPs can hold influence if they can help another party make up numbers, as the DUP have shown.

Jez may want an election. What if other MPs see a government of unity and no election as the way forward? Politicians on all sides are playing politics.

There won't be a unity govt on a permanent or long term basis. Any unity govt will just be to extend Art 50 and call an election. 

 

The easiest and quickest way to stop a no deal brexit is Jezs plan. If that's what as an MP you want. There's no credible way to.stop a no deal brexit without a general.election happening IMO 

Edited by zahidf

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11 hours ago, zahidf said:

The rebel Tories (in general, not all of them) want to stop no deal to replace it with another deal ( mays one I assume!). They aren't trying to stop Brexit either.

but they are trying to stop Jez.

Which is why Jez demanding to be PM in order to stop no-deal is never going to happen.

Does Jez want to stop no-deal, or is being PM more important to him? It's his choice.

 

11 hours ago, zahidf said:

It's a bit rich for swinson to be happy to go into coalition with the Tories but not Jez to stop no deal brexit.

The difference? One is a party, the other is a person.

Swinson would be happy to have a coalition with Labour, just not with a self-serving incompetent as leader of that coalition.

PS: it wasn't Swinson who did that deal with the tories, or even voted as agreed in that deal.

 

11 hours ago, zahidf said:

Jez has made clear that he will offer a second referendum with remain on the ballot. I'd be very surprised if that didn't pass labour conference

No he hasn't. He's offered a general election where parties can make their pitches towards brexit - and where we know his own will be "vote Labour, vote for brexit".

Given how he's trying every trick to avoid having to do that 2nd ref no one can trust him about it.

Do you trust him? Cos he's just moved the goalposts back to where they were before last Christmas, as tho nothing of what's happened since has happened.

 

11 hours ago, zahidf said:

And electorally, labour would be mental to undermine their leader before a general election.

why?

He's been a shit leader of 4 years. He's a shit leader before any GE and he'll still be a shit leader after a GE.

No one wants a shit leader. Not the public and not the MPs.

 

11 hours ago, zahidf said:

He's the leader of their party so they can't support someone else over him for PM before a general election.

They can, and no doubt some will.

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8 minutes ago, zahidf said:

There won't be a unity govt on a permanent or long term basis. Any unity govt will just be to extend Art 50 and call an election.

That may be the case if the numbers don't allow for it. So what is the incentive for MPs to vote themselves out of a job if they will be left with PM Boris or PM Jez at the end? As I have said I think we are left with stalemate as there is not a plan that suits enough of the no deal supporters.

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8 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

That's what happens when you stick your head above the parapet. The girl won't be able to do anything now without people checking her carbon footprint.

Not necessarily a bad thing IMO

Indeed....

 

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11 hours ago, zahidf said:

Isn't it solar powered and completely carbon neutral ?

nope.

It's only that *AFTER* huge amounts of carbon and plastic have been created during it's mostly-purposeless construction.

At least a 747 is creating carbon with an efficient purpose, and isn't further loading the idea that as individuals we can continue to have it all.

 

11 hours ago, zahidf said:

And isn't she using it to raise awareness?

Raise awareness about what? ;)

It would be *MUCH* better for her to talk about how sometimes carbon-heavy travel can be justified, but that for most of us  most of the time it should be ruled out. 

Until people seriously start pushing the idea that we can no longer justify flying for personal pleasure we're going nowhere with dealing with the real issues of personal consumption.

 

11 hours ago, zahidf said:

Just seems to be the usual bad faith suspects having a go

I'm not a bad faith suspect having a go. I'm pointing out that there's as much bad as good in her gesture.

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10 hours ago, LJS said:

It appears to me that Greta gets fiercely criticised whatever she does.

stuff that's a bad choice is a bad choice. She's capable of bad choices too.

Just wait till she has a kid. :P 

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8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

stuff that's a bad choice is a bad choice. She's capable of bad choices too.

Just wait till she has a kid. :P 

Short of rowing across the Atlantic in a boat made from recycled plastic straws, any mode of transport Greta uses will be criticised by those who oppose her.

It's a little disappointing to see you joining in.

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Just now, LJS said:

Short of rowing across the Atlantic in a boat made from recycled plastic straws, any mode of transport Greta uses will be criticised by those who oppose her.

It's a little disappointing to see you joining in.

I'm criticising the lack of smartness in her choice, and the missed opportunity to make a better case for what needs to happen.

The longer we keep pretending the issues are in the different place to where they are the longer we're failing to take meaningful action.

Greta is a step forwards, but we're still having the wrong conversations and thinking about the wrong things. Willy waving about the solar panels on the boat is deflecting from the huge carbon costs of building the boat in the first place, and where the purpose of the boat in a society context is nothing at all - it's a toy for personal fun.

If we're allowed to keep on building ourselves personal toys we're going nowhere at all in addressing the issues. In comparison flying is far more justifiable (and I personally think less than 1% of air travel can be justified).

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50 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

but they are trying to stop Jez.

Which is why Jez demanding to be PM in order to stop no-deal is never going to happen.

Does Jez want to stop no-deal, or is being PM more important to him? It's his choice.

 

The difference? One is a party, the other is a person.

Swinson would be happy to have a coalition with Labour, just not with a self-serving incompetent as leader of that coalition.

PS: it wasn't Swinson who did that deal with the tories, or even voted as agreed in that deal.

 

No he hasn't. He's offered a general election where parties can make their pitches towards brexit - and where we know his own will be "vote Labour, vote for brexit".

Given how he's trying every trick to avoid having to do that 2nd ref no one can trust him about it.

Do you trust him? Cos he's just moved the goalposts back to where they were before last Christmas, as tho nothing of what's happened since has happened.

 

why?

He's been a shit leader of 4 years. He's a shit leader before any GE and he'll still be a shit leader after a GE.

No one wants a shit leader. Not the public and not the MPs.

 

They can, and no doubt some will.

Um his letter is clear that labour would offer a referendum with remain as an option in the election. 

 

Swinson voted for the coalition government  numerous times. She was a minister.

Equally, is no deal brexit a preferable option for the lib dems than Jez as leader?

It's all politics anyway, but jez has made his pitch to remainers super clear on how he just wants a temporary govt to extend Art 50 and call an election. If that's refused, then the lib dems aren't others are just playing politics as far as I can see. 

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That suspicion by many on the Left that this sudden enthusiasm to stop Brexit at any cost by centrists, is just another ploy to remove Corbyn, having failed with leadership challenges suddenly gains more currency. I didn't think that was the case, but the reaction to Jezs very reasonable offer of a time limited govt to extend Art 50 and call an election makes me think there is something to it.

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3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Um his letter is clear that labour would offer a referendum with remain as an option in the election. 

while also offering brexit.

A brexit he plans to negotiate, where politicians don't come back and say "I'm a shit negotiator, so vote against me".

 

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Swinson voted for the coalition government  numerous times. She was a minister.

It wasn't Swinson who did the deal with the tories. :rolleyes: 

 

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Equally, is no deal brexit a preferable option for the lib dems than Jez as leader?

It might be. Just like you, they're allowed to make their own choices about what they think is the best outcome.

That doesn't make them evil, that merely makes them your equal.

 

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

It's all politics anyway, but jez has made his pitch to remainers super clear on how he just wants a temporary govt to extend Art 50 and call an election. If that's refused, then the lib dems aren't others are just playing politics as far as I can see. 

Why do you think an election is the best way to deal with this? 

It's holding the door open to a no-deal brexit, and worse, a minority no-deal brexit.

It's a shit idea where the driver for the idea isn't about resolving brexit.

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I think Swinson is making a bad call here it would be easy enough to say she's open to whatever options stop a No Deal but she doubts Corbyn can command the Tory rebel support needed without dismissing him outright.

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Just now, eFestivals said:

while also offering brexit.

A brexit he plans to negotiate, where politicians don't come back and say "I'm a shit negotiator, so vote against me".

 

It wasn't Swinson who did the deal with the tories. :rolleyes: 

 

It might be. Just like you, they're allowed to make their own choices about what they think is the best outcome.

That doesn't make them evil, that merely makes them your equal.

 

Why do you think an election is the best way to deal with this? 

It's holding the door open to a no-deal brexit, and worse, a minority no-deal brexit.

It's a shit idea where the driver for the idea isn't about resolving brexit.

I never said the lib dems are evil. I'm just saying they are hypocritical and playing politics, and I think there position  at the moment for not working with Jez is stupid if they want to stop no deal brexit no matter what.

 

A general election is the only way to resolve it practically given the numbers in parliament. 

If a Boris Johnson govt wins an election on a no deal brexit platform, then that's awful. But that's what he's doing now anyway. The remainers need to articulate why a no deal brexit would be terrible (which is what jezs letter says he will do).

Even if there is another legislative way to stop no deal brexit in October, Johnson will call an election  anyway. At least if he isn't prime minister when he calls it won't be in his purview.

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7 minutes ago, zahidf said:

That suspicion by many on the Left that this sudden enthusiasm to stop Brexit at any cost by centrists, is just another ploy to remove Corbyn, having failed with leadership challenges suddenly gains more currency. I didn't think that was the case, but the reaction to Jezs very reasonable offer of a time limited govt to extend Art 50 and call an election makes me think there is something to it.

Get out of here. :lol: 

People have been pointing out the flaws with Jez's position (his position, nothing to do with views within Labour, don't forget) for the last year.

And he kept on pointing at the conference resolution for why he was intransigent (a motion he forced on the party in the first place; the party would have chosen something vastly different by free-choice), but he seems to have forgotten that was "and if we can't get an election we move on to a different position" .

They failed to get an election. They should have moved on to the different position the resolution said.

The never really did move on to the position they should have done, but Jez did do a bit of mumbling and said the position had moved.

Now Jez has hit rewind.

There's fuck all that's reasonable about him being dogmatic and disingenuous with it..

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2 minutes ago, mcshed said:

I think Swinson is making a bad call here it would be easy enough to say she's open to whatever options stop a No Deal but she doubts Corbyn can command the Tory rebel support needed without dismissing him outright.

It's because they benefit politically from.being the most remainy. They know if they let labour become known as stopping no deal brexit, their own election  prospects suffer.

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