Jump to content
Barry Fish

General News Discussion

Recommended Posts

10 minutes ago, zahidf said:

So what are the 'number of options?

May wants a change in the wording but not a change in the guarantee that comes from the wording. In short, she's wanting the impossible.

I'm not saying there's an alternative - tho there might be a different wording that's more palatable to some.

I'm pointing out that the EU's demand of a backstop makes a deal just about impossible. It certainly makes it impossible for some MPs to support *ANY* deal with a backstop included.

I pointed all this out about the backstop at the time it was first mentioned by Ireland. You can find my posts about it in this thread!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

May wants a change in the wording but not a change in the guarantee that comes from the wording. In short, she's wanting the impossible.

I'm not saying there's an alternative - tho there might be a different wording that's more palatable to some.

I'm pointing out that the EU's demand of a backstop makes a deal just about impossible. It certainly makes it impossible for some MPs to support *ANY* deal with a backstop included.

I pointed all this out about the backstop at the time it was first mentioned by Ireland. You can find my posts about it in this thread!

I mentioned it as a reason not to vote LEAVE at the time. I believe the Johnson's of the world said it would be fine...

Ireland are perfectly in their rights as an EU member to not want to suffer from brexit and borders with NI

Also, I believe is broadly popular overall in NI (aside from the DUP of course)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I believe the Johnson's of the world said it would be fine...

 

johnson
[ˈdʒɒns(ə)n]
NOUN
US
vulgar slang
johnsons (plural noun)
  1. a man's penis.
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Ireland are perfectly in their rights as an EU member to not want to suffer from brexit and borders with NI

True. But there's a guarantee for that already, in the GFA.

As I keep saying, the issue is not about the border, it's about the EU's claim on the sovereignty of NI contained within the backstop.

8 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Also, I believe is broadly popular overall in NI

No border is, yep.

And the UK govt has recognised that and said it'll stand by the GFA (which it's already legally obliged to do).

What this is really about from Ireland's side is THEM not being willing to stand by (just) the GFA, because they have responsibilities towards it too.

The UK is not legally obliged* to erect a border if things change (as they are with brexit) and says it won't. 
(* however ... it would get very awkward with WTO stuff if they didn't erect a border).

Ireland, meanwhile, has signed up to the EU treatie which legally obliges Ireland to erect that border - and Ireland don't want to stick to their EU treaty obligations, so are using the GFA to ensure that part of their own treaty obligations aren't triggered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What the bleeding heck was the point of all of yesterday if they were just going to vote for even more stalemate? The only way out of this now, that I can see is, if the EU comes to its senses and folds, but I doubt that's going to happen.

EDIT: I also doubt that May will even put forth a proposal to the EU that could pass parliament in the first place.

Edited by KingPin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, KingPin said:

EDIT: I also doubt that May will even put forth a proposal to the EU that could pass parliament in the first place.

and that's because the problem isn't May, or the EU, or parliament ... it's brexit itself.

It's just a fucking stupid idea with no advantages.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would British MPs really have much of an issue with the Back Stop if it wasn't for those pesky DUP MPs being the tail? My hunch is that most outside of Northern Ireland dont really give a fiddlers fuck about NI and we are here because the issue of NI wasn't really taken too seriously by MPs when Brexit occurred originally.

As suggested above, the removal of the back stop alone will most likely not get a deal agreed in parliament anyway. Its just a convenient excuse......

Why there is no uproar about calling a Mulligan on Brexit by the UK masses is still beyond me BTW...........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

Would British MPs really have much of an issue with the Back Stop if it wasn't for those pesky DUP MPs being the tail?

Some definitely would. A demand on sovereignty like that only normally exists in a surrender in war.

And while the DUP might be w*nkers, I don't think it's particularly unreasonable for UK MPs to regard a stance by some in NI on a matter of sovereignty as something they should support.

11 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

As suggested above, the removal of the back stop alone will most likely not get a deal agreed in parliament anyway. Its just a convenient excuse......

I don't particularly disagree.

But if everything that currently exists with the WA was the same but without the backstop, the deal would be a fair bit closer to passing.

The facts is that right now the backstop is working against the thing which caused Ireland to insist on a backstop. 

And if things end up with no-deal, it's going to be an easy thing for the tories to point at to say "look, it's all their* fault" which probably isn't going to help things in that no-deal world. :( 

(* Ireland, or the EU: take your pick)

I understand why Ireland wanted that backstop and I don't really blame them for insisting on it ... but at the same time I can still see that right now it's being counter productive rather than anything positive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Project Fear. Stop talking down Brexit. We need to unite behind Brexit. Europe has more to lose than us, so of course we'll get a deal. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

Would British MPs really have much of an issue with the Back Stop if it wasn't for those pesky DUP MPs being the tail? My hunch is that most outside of Northern Ireland dont really give a fiddlers fuck about NI and we are here because the issue of NI wasn't really taken too seriously by MPs when Brexit occurred originally.

As suggested above, the removal of the back stop alone will most likely not get a deal agreed in parliament anyway. Its just a convenient excuse......

Why there is no uproar about calling a Mulligan on Brexit by the UK masses is still beyond me BTW...........

Makes no sense to me but possibly the most "visible" Scottish Tory MP was on the box the other night giving it " I`m a Unionist first and foremost " when asked about Brexit / Scotland / back stop.

Up here, the Tory`s even re-branded as the Conservative and Unionist party. With the constant shadow of Indy hanging around our politics, we also have some of the issues /  politics of NI lurking in the background here. It`s not just the DUP who would go over the Brexit cliff just to save their beloved union. Sad and mad in equal measure....in my opinion.

In fairness, Ruth D has done an excellent job of getting the Unionist types up here on board. Regular photos ops involving tanks and union jacks seems to do the trick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

It`s not just the DUP who would go over the Brexit cliff just to save their beloved union. Sad and mad in equal measure....in my opinion.

Makes perfect sense to me with a greater proportion of Scottish trade involving the British union than the European union. Leaving both is damaging but leaving Britain much worse.

I'm more interested in how the campaign will be fought if there is a second referendum. Will the Scottish public now be more cynical towards a "we can have anything we want if we leave" type argument again now they have a real world example of one of these campaigns having its bluff called. I think a second Scottish indy ref will be quite different to the first and there won't be the articles flying about regarding Scotland being europe's Singapore and the like.

Edited by lost

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I just don't see the second referendum happening now. Those who hold power in labour don't want it, neither do most tories. 

yeah, but no one has a workable plan with the support to get voted thru, so something is going to have to happen else we're going off the cliff.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just revoke the whole thing. If someone comes up with a credible plan later, they can try and get it through parliament/GE/a new referendum. Then we can send A50 and start the whole malarkey. Until then, lets get on with our lives without this idiocy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

Just revoke the whole thing. If someone comes up with a credible plan later, they can try and get it through parliament/GE/a new referendum. Then we can send A50 and start the whole malarkey. Until then, lets get on with our lives without this idiocy.

And go through it all again? :lol:. I don't think so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

And go through it all again? :lol:. I don't think so.

Well we go through the "lets use technology to solve the Irish border" question every 3 weeks. Why not go through sending and revoking A50 every 3 years?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

Just revoke the whole thing. If someone comes up with a credible plan later, they can try and get it through parliament/GE/a new referendum. Then we can send A50 and start the whole malarkey. Until then, lets get on with our lives without this idiocy.

Nah. How are we going to stop freedom of movement and stop the darkies coming over?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, zahidf said:

Nah. How are we going to stop freedom of movement and stop the darkies coming over?

So you think the people who want to restrict freedom of movement are happy with Whities from Poland?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, zahidf said:

Nah. How are we going to stop freedom of movement and stop the darkies coming over?

Poor zahaidf - Getting it wrong again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

So you think the people who want to restrict freedom of movement are happy with Whities from Poland?

Probably not but they definitely want less of those of a darker hue

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Probably not but they definitely want less of those of a darker hue

you insist it's only about skin colour.

The truth is that for a large proportion of those objecting about immigration it's about numbers and how it's changing communities.

Bigotry is bigotry, zahid. ;) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

you insist it's only about skin colour.

The truth is that for a large proportion of those objecting about immigration it's about numbers and how it's changing communities.

Bigotry is bigotry, zahid. ;) 

Not just about skin colour. But I think it's a larger part of the equation than you want to admit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

Just revoke the whole thing. If someone comes up with a credible plan later, they can try and get it through parliament/GE/a new referendum. Then we can send A50 and start the whole malarkey. Until then, lets get on with our lives without this idiocy.

Yeah like that's going to go down well when the Tory membership and Tory constituences are pro brexit :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, KingPin said:

Yeah like that's going to go down well when the Tory membership and Tory constituences are pro brexit :rolleyes:

but the country clearly isn't when unicorns are removed from it.

A second vote is by-far the most sensible way to go, because the country is against brexit, and it puts it to bed rather than has it as a running sore for the next decade+.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...



×
×
  • Create New...