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The Dirty Independence Question


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13 hours ago, LJS said:

Yeah, it can't be pleasant delivering such a dismal, doom-laden message & talking Scotland down. The simple answer is to come and join the yes side . You know it makes sense. 

Sorry, I'm just too rational. I'll just need to suck it up and deal with all the morons screaming 'traitor' at me.

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Do you reckon May will grant the legally binding ref?  As it's Westminister who needs to grant it.  The timing is pretty terrible, I'm sure no one in Governnment wants to be in the final throws of the Brexit negotiations and then have to deal with the Scindy ref. 

Given that Scotland won't be able to jump straight back into the EU, then surely the timing could wait a year. 

If they stuck with their current timing - i.e. to leave the UK within a few months of the vote - then how will they be able to negotiate any trade deals in time?  It's seen as very optimistic that the UK will agree deals in the next two years and that's as 5th/6th largest economy in the world.  With no disrespect to Scotland, I'm not sure a trade deal with Scotland will be that high up on any other country's radar, apart from rUK, so 2 years would be exceptionally optimistic for Scotland.

I know it sounds like scaremongering, but how do LJS/Comfy think the timing will work out?  I don't want to get into mud throwing, I'd just like a practical answer.

 

 

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12 hours ago, brandycoke said:

 

I didn't campaign, but just living in Scotland during the referendum  wasn't a very pleasant experience , and certainly not one that i'd care to go through again so soon.

 

 

 

11 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Each to their own mate and obviously I'm not aware of your personal experience but I enjoyed the debate, the turnout and how engaged folk got, especially the youngsters. Credit due to both sides for that.

I saw more fighting and battles round my way in an hour yesterday afternoon than I did during the whole Indy campaign.

 

 

1 hour ago, russycarps said:

It's sad to see how aggressive this thread has got already. I've no idea what the weekends fist fighting had to do with this thread, what a curious thing to bring up. Just putting the thought in people's minds I guess. A common tactic.

The next 24 months are going to be hell for the sane of mind in Scotland.

 

 

 

Hey Russy. Hope all good with you. Oil price seems to be pretty settled, not to mention low.

I think B&C was quite entitled to bring up his not very pleasant experiences from during the last campaign. Far from being aggressive, I credited both sides for the lack of aggression but also gave the caveat that I couldn`t be aware of B&C`s own personal experiences.

I was referring to Scotland`s problems with religious bigotry and specifically that we see far bigger problems during a weekend involving a certain footy match than we would during an indy campaign. I accept that you won`t follow that side of things very closely but you can trust me that everyone else in that exchange knew what we were talking about. The relevant point is that we live with that unpleasantness all the time ( especially round my way as I said ) and it is way way worse than anything we will see over indy.

Far from being aggressive, it ended in an exchange over bumper stickers. Perhaps you were looking for tactics that weren`t there mate.

Interestingly your fishing trip ends with the suggestion is going to be " hell " for the people living in Scotland ;):lol:

It really won`t be but give it 5 mins and Neil will be along claiming snippers wish " death " on old NO voters :(

Far from this being about hell and death it is about hope and opportunity....in my opinion. Scotland will get the choice, they might well chose to stay.

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14 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

Do you reckon May will grant the legally binding ref?

It's a difficult call.

However, May doesn't have to do anything for the moment, she just has to sit back and see what the SNP want to do. The SNP have to lay their cards out first, that's how the process works.

15 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

As it's Westminister who needs to grant it.  The timing is pretty terrible, I'm sure no one in Governnment wants to be in the final throws of the Brexit negotiations and then have to deal with the Scindy ref. 

Given that Scotland won't be able to jump straight back into the EU, then surely the timing could wait a year. 

If they stuck with their current timing - i.e. to leave the UK within a few months of the vote - then how will they be able to negotiate any trade deals in time?  It's seen as very optimistic that the UK will agree deals in the next two years and that's as 5th/6th largest economy in the world.  With no disrespect to Scotland, I'm not sure a trade deal with Scotland will be that high up on any other country's radar, apart from rUK, so 2 years would be exceptionally optimistic for Scotland.

I know it sounds like scaremongering, but how do LJS/Comfy think the timing will work out?  I don't want to get into mud throwing, I'd just like a practical answer.

I'd say it would be perfectly reasonable for the UK to say 'wait till after brexit' - tho there's the risk of awkward political consequences from that .... then again, the ones who'd take most offence to a 'no' would be those who are determined to vote out in any and all circumstances anyway.

As for when Scotland might actually be ready for indy, that's a laugh. The people who demand more powers and who claimed that 18 months was plenty of time to sort everything out have recently been asking Westminster to not give it powers over welfare for 5 years because it'll take 5 years for them to be ready to hold those powers.

I'm suspecting that the new indy offering might be a big like the SNP's full fiscal autonomy 'demands' (written down in VERY embarrassing black and white) - where they demanded the right to self-fund, but only after leeching all the money they could from the UK so they didn't actually self-fund.

A "we can run our own affairs because Scotland is fantastic but only when we say so, when we're ready, and after you've funded us all the money to make it possible".

The sort of indy where the hated English make it possible. :lol:

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17 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

Do you reckon May will grant the legally binding ref?  As it's Westminister who needs to grant it.  The timing is pretty terrible, I'm sure no one in Governnment wants to be in the final throws of the Brexit negotiations and then have to deal with the Scindy ref. 

Given that Scotland won't be able to jump straight back into the EU, then surely the timing could wait a year. 

If they stuck with their current timing - i.e. to leave the UK within a few months of the vote - then how will they be able to negotiate any trade deals in time?  It's seen as very optimistic that the UK will agree deals in the next two years and that's as 5th/6th largest economy in the world.  With no disrespect to Scotland, I'm not sure a trade deal with Scotland will be that high up on any other country's radar, apart from rUK, so 2 years would be exceptionally optimistic for Scotland.

I know it sounds like scaremongering, but how do LJS/Comfy think the timing will work out?  I don't want to get into mud throwing, I'd just like a practical answer.

 

 

I think Yes May will grant it. Anything else would be a gift to the indy side in my opinion.

I`m only guessing at a date but I`d go with as late as possible. the Tory`s approaching a GE with a massive lead heading towards a massive majority while the effects of Brexit are kicking in ( I`m assuming negative ones ) would be the perfect backdrop for YES. An irrelevant Labour, like we have now, makes it a straight choice up here although I do think some Labour figures will " break " in favour of indy which will help YES.

Your right that the timing is pretty terrible for May. As you will also know that will be one of the reasons for calling this now. May has a hell of a lot on her plate and the platform of an SNP conference is this weekend. Over the last fortnight we have also seen a small shift in the polls to around 50 / 50. This is as " good " as it`s been which might be another factor.

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7 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

The relevant point is that we live with that unpleasantness all the time

Scotland, the place where there's less bigotry? :P

Cos it's funny, you know, that there's none of that same bigotry in hated tory England.

(Well, there is actually - but only in places where there's a very high number of Scottish  emigrants. Corby, for one).

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9 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

It really won`t be but give it 5 mins and Neil will be along claiming snippers wish " death " on old NO voters :(

it's standard snippers rhetoric, no more or no less than the endless claims that "Scotland is a country" gives a greater right to something civic.

Which ends up as the blood and soil you pretend doesn't exist, and which I've seen tens of thousands of times but not once have I seen it called out by a snipper as wrong.

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1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

it's standard snippers rhetoric, no more or no less than the endless claims that "Scotland is a country" gives a greater right to something civic.

Which ends up as the blood and soil you pretend doesn't exist, and which I've seen tens of thousands of times but not once have I seen it called out by a snipper as wrong.

Are you actually saying it`s standard for folks to wish death on their opponent over this :lol:

Hopefully Russy will be along shortly to call you out on this drivel. Sad scenes. 

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1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

because someone saying 'no' with good reason is a reason for a Scotsman to take offence? 

Even when those same Scots don't want the thing that might be denied them? 

PMSL :lol:

I think May denying Sturgeon will be a gift. I disagree with you.

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Just now, eFestivals said:

which means Scotland is out of the EU and single market, which means there's no necessity to hold the vote before brexit.

Thing is, even if the vote were to happen next month, there still isn't time for iScotland to get everything in order before Brexit.  Other than a purely political move, I don't get why they'd want it before we've left.  Scotland leaving the EU with the rest of us is pretty inevitable, so why not wait for the dust to settle and give themselves a better starting point for separating as an independent country.

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Just now, gary1979666 said:

Thing is, even if the vote were to happen next month, there still isn't time for iScotland to get everything in order before Brexit. 

Yep - and particularly when the SG reckons it needs 5 years before it can take on just a little bit of welfare responsibility.

 

Just now, gary1979666 said:

Other than a purely political move, I don't get why they'd want it before we've left.

because grievance is the only weapon in the armoury of all nationalists.

 

Just now, gary1979666 said:

 Scotland leaving the EU with the rest of us is pretty inevitable, so why not wait for the dust to settle and give themselves a better starting point for separating as an independent country.

because taking an intelligent position is nothing about this.

You only have to read the comments below newspaper articles to see endless snippers say they can be as moronically stupid as brexiters, that's how clever they are.

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10 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Sinn Fien want an independence referendum  now.

Nice one LEAVE voters!

I thought you were against economic stupidity for the sake of economic stupidity?

What don't you grasp about the fact that Brexit, Scottish indie, and NI re-uniting with Ireland is all the same economic stupidity - but with bells on, and a 100% certainty (which brexit doesn't have) of severe economic damage via the loss of current fiscal transfers?

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Just now, eFestivals said:

I thought you were against economic stupidity for the sake of economic stupidity?

What don't you grasp about the fact that Brexit, Scottish indie, and NI re-uniting with Ireland is all the same economic stupidity - but with bells on, and a 100% certainty (which brexit doesn't have) of severe economic damage via the loss of current fiscal transfers?

I dont support Scottish or NI independence.

 

My point is May will have a lot of difficulty in broad terms saying Hard Brexit and independence in the EU is good for the Uk, but Scottish independence and NI joining Ireland is 'bad' for them. And its only come up again because of LEAVE

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5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I wish I could take pleasure in watching the Brexiters' idiotic fantasies slam into the brick wall of reality, but I'm trapped in the boot of the car, put there by some guy from hartlepool.

There's no pleasure to take in brexit or scottish independence, even if you personally were completely insulated from the effects.

Millions of people are going to suffer completely unnecessary hardship, just for a nationalist pipedream. Quite incredible.

And as ever it will be the poorest people who suffer the most.

 

 

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2 hours ago, russycarps said:

do you feel the same about Brexit?

 

No I don`t mate. I think we were on the same side, from memory.

I`ve seen it said that Brexit was about immigration and building a new hospital per week with the money we would save. They should be springing up around us any day now.

Although we are on the same side, the folk in England and Wales disagreed with us. I respect that just as many folk respect the fact that 62% of folk in Scotland agreed with us. This has given the Scottish Govt the opportunity to ask the indy question and offer us the choice.

The path that the Tories are taking is pretty clear. The material change has happened so the SNP are entitled to ask the question in my view. Some think the answer will be the same but they are entitled to ask. That`s democracy for you.

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