The Dirty Independence Question

[Comfy Bean]

Cheers stash. Well spotted. Don't think we had bothered with the tit for tat links on here or just posting flags like the jack etc.

Looks like your right though. As I said, I've never claimed anyone was a traitor nor has anyone else on here. Until you.

I won't bother trying to balance the books. Easy as it would be :-)

 

 

I think comfy was referring to this forum.

Although, depending on where he chooses to spend his time on line, it's perfectly possible he hasn't heard anyone use the word.

I have never heard anyone called a traitor other than on-line.

Please note that is not a claim that no one has ever called anyone a traitor...only that I haven't personally heard it.

The Labour Party managed to sing a song mentioning traitors for years & no one bothered in the slightest.

 

 

 

I'll let Comfy himself(?) clarify what he meant. Though the words he used suggest he wasn't just referring to this forum.

 

Nationalist use of 'traitor' is pretty ubiquitous. Remember when Jim Murphy and Eddie Izzard came to Glasgow during the General Election campaign?

 

But at least no one on efests is irrational enough to use that language. These guys obviously don't go to a lot of festivals. 

 

 

 

I remember one guy and his mate shouting and Jimbo and Eddie Izz. Pretty ugly scenes I`ll admit. Not anything like the ugly scenes we saw in George Sq but we`ve covered that a while ago and as I said, tit for tat links are pretty pointless.

Idiots on both sides.

[eFestivals]

I've never claimed anyone was a traitor nor has anyone else on here. Until you..

 

I've pointed out on here the claims by many snippers that anyone not supporting indy is a traitor.

 

These are the people you align yourself with, but it's not blood and soil nationalism, yeah?

[LJS]

Interesting...

"Kezia Dugdale would allow indyref 'free vote'"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34301969

[eFestivals]

Interesting...

"Kezia Dugdale would allow indyref 'free vote'"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34301969

 

 

rephrased: Dugdale doesn't rule out Labour supporters being as economically illiterate as snippers.

 

No shit sherlock.

[LJS]

rephrased: Dugdale doesn't rule out Labour supporters being as economically illiterate as snippers.

No shit sherlock.

Beautiful,Neil. Just beautiful.

[eFestivals]

Beautiful,Neil. Just beautiful.

 

then show me the workable economic plan that can make your indy dream a reality.

 

You can't.

 

Nor can your glorious leader.

 

Today there's a report in one of the papers of an SNP MP saying that Nicola has ruled out another indyref for all of the next Scottish Parliament and that the "triggers" thing is just cover to keep the shouty types in line.

 

Fancy that, the leader of the indy party doesn't want indy.

 

I wonder why?

Edited September 21, 2015 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

then show me the workable economic plan that can make your indy dream a reality.

 

You can't.

 

Nor can your glorious leader.

 

Today there's a report in one of the papers of an SNP MP saying that Nicola has ruled out another indyref for all of the next Scottish Parliament and that the "triggers" thing is just cover to keep the shouty types in line.

 

Fancy that, the leader of the indy party doesn't want indy.

 

I wonder why?

 

" Today " ?

 

The leader of the Indy party doesn`t want Indy ?

 

Do you honestly believe that ?

 

We`ve been telling you for ages there would be no immediate re-run of last year. The majority of people think it would be bonkers.

 

My view is that it`s time to look for support for one from the Scottish people after the Tories win the next GE. I`ll go for 2020ish ?

 

This latest news from Dugz that Labour MSP`s would be free to vote and campaign for YES is just another ( small ) step.

 

When not if......but not tomorrow 

 

Dugz also saying she " knows " 30% of Labour supporters fancy Indy and this figure is rising. Seems more likely that this momentum will continue with more coming from NO to YES than the other way round.

 

We`d all like to see 60/40 but only a 5% swing is required and we will consistently be seeing that into next year in my opinion.

[Comfy Bean]

More on this Dugz Indy development, this from the Torie leader up here :

 

 

But her move was met with a withering response from Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson.

Ms Davidson said: “For the leader of a party supposedly committed to safeguarding Scotland’s place within the United Kingdom, it beggars belief that Kezia Dugdale should now be giving her support to Labour MSPs and activists who want to campaign for independence.

“As a result of her statement, the position of the Scottish Labour party on this most vital of issues has been plunged into complete confusion and Kezia Dugdale must explain her apparent U-turn immediately.

“This further lack of clarity from Scottish Labour makes it clear that the Scottish Conservatives are the only party who are both unequivocal in their commitment to securing Scotland’s place within the United Kingdom and who have the strength and resolve to stand up to the SNP and its continuing drive for independence.”

Read more: http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/kezia-dugdale-labour-msps-free-to-back-end-of-uk-1-3893046#ixzz3mMXHKZC0

[eFestivals]

" Today " ?

 

The leader of the Indy party doesn`t want Indy ?

 

Do you honestly believe that ?

I believe she knows it's unobtainable in all practical senses, yes.

Do you have the economic plans that she doesn't have?

 

We`ve been telling you for ages there would be no immediate re-run of last year. The majority of people think it would be bonkers.

what you mean is that the snippers know they'd lose. Again.

Which is precisely why your glorious leader doesn't want another vote.

My view is that it`s time to look for support for one from the Scottish people after the Tories win the next GE. I`ll go for 2020ish ?

 

all of the same problems exist - no currency, no economy, no EU.

This latest news from Dugz that Labour MSP`s would be free to vote and campaign for YES is just another ( small ) step.

Why? They need to be insane too, because the poor are not looked after in a poor iScotland.

When not if......but not tomorrow 

when ... you have a plan?

Dugz also saying she " knows " 30% of Labour supporters fancy Indy and this figure is rising. Seems more likely that this momentum will continue with more coming from NO to YES than the other way round.

I've seen numbers which say that more SNP voters voted against indie than Labour supporters voted for it.

They might not be true of course, but the assumptions run wild on your side, like how you flagged up the SNP GE result as meaningful towards indie when it was clearly stated that indie was no part of it.

We`d all like to see 60/40 but only a 5% swing is required and we will consistently be seeing that into next year in my opinion.

PMSL ... the support for indie hasn't risen a jot since before last Sept.

The polls now are averaging the same as they were before the vote.

[eFestivals]

More on this Dugz Indy development, this from the Torie leader up here :

 

 

But her move was met with a withering response from Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson.

Ms Davidson said: “For the leader of a party supposedly committed to safeguarding Scotland’s place within the United Kingdom, it beggars belief that Kezia Dugdale should now be giving her support to Labour MSPs and activists who want to campaign for independence.

“As a result of her statement, the position of the Scottish Labour party on this most vital of issues has been plunged into complete confusion and Kezia Dugdale must explain her apparent U-turn immediately.

“This further lack of clarity from Scottish Labour makes it clear that the Scottish Conservatives are the only party who are both unequivocal in their commitment to securing Scotland’s place within the United Kingdom and who have the strength and resolve to stand up to the SNP and its continuing drive for independence.”

Read more: http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/kezia-dugdale-labour-msps-free-to-back-end-of-uk-1-3893046#ixzz3mMXHKZC0

Does Ms Dugdale have an eye on next May, I wonder?

Cos she can take the SNP line of spouting lots of bullshit to get votes, and you won't notice just as you don't notice the SNP's bullshit.

Why is Nicola running scared of 'True Labour', comfy? Because she's so sure of winning?

Edited September 21, 2015 by eFestivals

[tolywoly]

I remember one guy and his mate shouting and Jimbo and Eddie Izz. Pretty ugly scenes I`ll admit. Not anything like the ugly scenes we saw in George Sq but we`ve covered that a while ago and as I said, tit for tat links are pretty pointless.

Idiots on both sides.

What's going on in the post this is attached to? Are you trying to evidence that when you said you'd never seen or heard anyone using the term traitor you really meant you'd never read it on this forum? If so it's not very convincing. Cause anyone can just go back a couple of pages and read the entirety of the conversation. 

[tolywoly]

I've seen numbers which say that more SNP voters voted against indie than Labour supporters voted for it.

They might not be true of course, but the assumptions run wild on your side, like how you flagged up the SNP GE result as meaningful towards indie when it was clearly stated that indie was no part of it.

 

Panelbase (the Nat pollster of choice) did show that in the run up to the GE. It was probably reflected in other polls too. But some of those SNP supporters would have been Labour supporters in 2010. 90% of Yes voters now vote SNP. 

 

I've said this before - the nationalists have got everything going for them right now, but can't produce a consistent majority in a favour of independence. Unless a vast new untapped oil field really is discovered, Scotland's finances are only going to get worse wrt the UKs. I just can't see indy happening without one of those significant changes. I'm not sure anymore that the UK leaving the EU would even be enough. It might take a war.

[eFestivals]

I'm not sure anymore that the UK leaving the EU would even be enough.

According to the supposed SNP MP's comments i read about bthis morning,despite what Sturgeon is saying publicly privately she's saying that wouldn't be enough to trigger another indyref.

 

Without a plan there is no plan and no progress.

 

And the only workable plans - such as Scottish own currency - are ones that Scots seem unlikely to go along with, as that would make clear the real costs.

 

I see that Catalonia has been warned today it will be out of the Eurozone if goes indy. Not a surprise to anyone but some snippers, I'll wager ... tho they're not surprised, they're seeing conspiracies and not treaties.

 

It might take a war.

 

I think LJS might be planning to start one. I asked where the money was coming from for Scotland recently and he said 'print it' ... which of course is acceptable grounds for war, counterfeiting another nation's currency.

 

[Comfy Bean]

What's going on in the post this is attached to? Are you trying to evidence that when you said you'd never seen or heard anyone using the term traitor you really meant you'd never read it on this forum? If so it's not very convincing. Cause anyone can just go back a couple of pages and read the entirety of the conversation. 

 

Agreed.

[Comfy Bean]

Panelbase (the Nat pollster of choice) did show that in the run up to the GE. It was probably reflected in other polls too. But some of those SNP supporters would have been Labour supporters in 2010. 90% of Yes voters now vote SNP. 

 

I've said this before - the nationalists have got everything going for them right now, but can't produce a consistent majority in a favour of independence. Unless a vast new untapped oil field really is discovered, Scotland's finances are only going to get worse wrt the UKs. I just can't see indy happening without one of those significant changes. I'm not sure anymore that the UK leaving the EU would even be enough. It might take a war.

 

I`m not sure that the folk in favour of Indy have got everything going for them right now. Some on here thought it was all about greed and oil and the oil price is down the stank. You can`t all be right ?

 

I " think " there is a Scottish election in 2021. If, as seems likely the Tories win the GE in 2020 then I think the time would be about right. If momentum continues like it has for the last 5 years then YES will win. 

 

As I said earlier, I think Labour`s change in position is interesting and relevant. With Dugz giving her MSP`s the green light to support and vote for Independence then how will some of their supporters interpret this ?

Might be a good thing for Labour up here. We`ve spoke before about ex-labour voters returning to the party in an Indy Scotland.  As Neil said earlier, I`m sure she has an eye on next years election but it could also back fire.

If it was McTernan`s idea then back fire would be favourite in my opinion.

 

That 90% figure is interesting. With 30% of Labour supporters ( according to dugz ) and rising before her intervention it looks like it will be the Labour supporters that will take YES over the line.

 

Poll I saw today expecting the SNP to increase their majority in next years election.

[Comfy Bean]

Does Ms Dugdale have an eye on next May, I wonder?

Cos she can take the SNP line of spouting lots of bullshit to get votes, and you won't notice just as you don't notice the SNP's bullshit.

Why is Nicola running scared of 'True Labour', comfy? Because she's so sure of winning?

 

I agree with the first bit.

 

Are you saying that Ms Dugdale, like her gaffer before her, is " true Labour ". Surely not ?

 

Atleast we both support free tuition fees, no nukes and an end to austerity *

 

 

 

 

 

 

* by support I mean will vote in favour of   

[Comfy Bean]

OK just took Stash`s advice and googled traitor and Jim Murphy ( for the first time ever ).

 

Looks like when he and Izzard went walkabout they were accused of being " traitors to the working man ",  " Red Tories " and Murphy was called a " war monger ".

 

Ugly scenes indeed.

 

Apparantely it was a " group " of 2 " separatists " what done it.

 

Ugly scenes though as I`ve said.

 

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon/11581535/Eddie-Izzard-and-Jim-Murphy-abused-by-Scottish-nationalists-at-Labour-general-election-event.html

Edited September 21, 2015 by comfortablynumb1910

[LJS]

According to the supposed SNP MP's comments i read about this morning,despite what Sturgeon is saying publicly privately she's saying that wouldn't be enough to trigger another indyref.

 

So entirely fact free speculation by the sounds of it, wouldn't you say, old bean?

 

Without a plan there is no plan and no progress.

 

And the only workable plans - such as Scottish own currency - are ones that Scots seem unlikely to go along with, as that would make clear the real costs.

 

Will the SNP go into another Indyref without a plan? 

 

Will the SNP publish their plan before the start of the Indyref campaign?

 

Will Neil rubbish the plan whatever is says?

 

I'm happy to wait. It's the "once in a generation" gang that are so impatient.

 

I see that Catalonia has been warned today it will be out of the Eurozone if goes indy. Not a surprise to anyone but some snippers, I'll wager ... tho they're not surprised, they're seeing conspiracies and not treaties.

 

So I see. Just imagine if these warnings proved to be wrong. Just imagine the EU decided it was in its interests to allow an Independent Catalonia & its people to remain in the EU. Just imagine people said - "hey these guys have been in the EU for years - what is the benefit to anyone in excluding them?" Just imagine the effect the effect on public opinion in Scotland when they saw a central plank of the no campaign blown out of the water.  (do me a favour,don't start wittering on about Lisbon, treaties blah blah blah. Treateies are being ignored all over the EU as we speak.) 

 

I think LJS might be planning to start one. I asked where the money was coming from for Scotland recently and he said 'print it' ... which of course is acceptable grounds for war, counterfeiting another nation's currency.

 

Not me mate, even your inability to recognise a joke is not grounds for war. 

 

 

[LJS]

Panelbase (the Nat pollster of choice) did show that in the run up to the GE. It was probably reflected in other polls too. But some of those SNP supporters would have been Labour supporters in 2010. 90% of Yes voters now vote SNP. 

 

I've said this before - the nationalists have got everything going for them right now, but can't produce a consistent majority in a favour of independence. Unless a vast new untapped oil field really is discovered, Scotland's finances are only going to get worse wrt the UKs. I just can't see indy happening without one of those significant changes. I'm not sure anymore that the UK leaving the EU would even be enough. It might take a war.

 

Ok let me get this right. 

 

According to you guys we will be £10bn /£12bn/£15bn a year in deficit. We will need to slash spending in a way that will make the Tories look like Mother Theresa, The oil in my kitchen is worth more than that in the north sea, we have no viable currency option& we will be kicked out of the EU. 

 

Yup, we've got everything going for us right now. 

 

Make your mind up guys. You can choose one of the following options:

 

1: iScotland is a basket case

 

2:iScotland has everything going for it.

 

Your really can't have both.

Edited September 21, 2015 by LJS

[LJS]

 

I'll let Comfy himself(?) clarify what he meant. Though the words he used suggest he wasn't just referring to this forum.

 

Nationalist use of 'traitor' is pretty ubiquitous. Remember when Jim Murphy and Eddie Izzard came to Glasgow during the General Election campaign?

 

But at least no one on efests is irrational enough to use that language. These guys obviously don't go to a lot of festivals. 

 

 

Can I suggest we all agree violence, intimidation & online abuse is wrong from all sides. It really isn't difficult to find examples from both sides. I have been guilty of the tit for tat game. So I am deliberately not doing it now.  

 

I will repeat for the umpteenth time that I have experienced none of this in the analogue world & indeed am still on excellent terms with many people with whom I profoundly disagree on Scottish Indy. its called being grown up. Most of us (on both sides of the argument & the border) are

Edited September 21, 2015 by LJS

[tolywoly]

Ok let me get this right. 

 

According to you guys we will be £10bn /£12bn/£15bn a year in deficit. We will need to slash spending in a way that will make the Tories look like Mother Theresa, The oil in my kitchen is worth more than that in the north sea, we have no viable currency option& we will be kicked out of the EU. 

 

Yup, we've got everything going for us right now. 

 

Make your mind up guys. You can choose one of the following options:

 

1: iScotland is a basket case

 

2:iScotland has everything going for it.

 

Your really can't have both.

No, that's not what I was getting at. The critical distinction is - I was referring to what Scottish nationalists currently have in their favour, not iScotland.

 

If I was going to list the things Scottish Nationalism has going for it right now, one would be the current lack of scrutiny on the practical details of independence. You've mentioned some of the usual suspects. Another referendum campaign would reopen those debates. Do nationalists have any better answers than they did last time?

 

Because of the continued downward trend in oil income, it will be much harder for them to misrepresent Scotland's financial position by taking a selective view of the data. That "second oil boom" chat is unlikely to work again either.

[tolywoly]

Can I suggest we all agree violence, intimidation & online abuse is wrong from all sides. It really isn't difficult to find examples from both sides. I have been guilty of the tit for tat game. So I am deliberately not doing it now.  

 

I will repeat for the umpteenth time that I have experienced none of this in the analogue world & indeed am still on excellent terms with many people with whom I profoundly disagree on Scottish Indy. its called being grown up. Most of us (on both sides of the argument & the border) are

Agreed. Unfortunately I've been called called a traitor dozens of times. At least we can agree to be grown up and civil here.

Edited September 22, 2015 by tolywoly

[eFestivals]

I`m not sure that the folk in favour of Indy have got everything going for them right now. Some on here thought it was all about greed and oil and the oil price is down the stank. You can`t all be right ?

sadly for Scotland - certainly amongst the shouty types - there's still a belief that the oil is a bonus (rather than the white paper statement of it being a necessary part of the budget to the value of all Scottish education), and that the UK is ripping Scotland off elsewhere too and so an indy Scotland would be rich.

Even you expect an economic miracle so that poverty isn't what you get.

Are these the thoughts of smart people, or something different?

Edited September 22, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

As I said earlier, I think Labour`s change in position is interesting and relevant. With Dugz giving her MSP`s the green light to support and vote for Independence then how will some of their supporters interpret this ?

Might be a good thing for Labour up here. We`ve spoke before about ex-labour voters returning to the party in an Indy Scotland.  As Neil said earlier, I`m sure she has an eye on next years election but it could also back fire.

If it was McTernan`s idea then back fire would be favourite in my opinion.

even if it's genuine, the shouties are on a mission to discredit it. All they have to say at the moment is their hatred of Labour (barely a mention of the 'hated' tories, funny that), as tho something is spooking them.

 

Personally I think chucking stuff like this into the mix isn't helpful to anything, including Labour. Give it time and many will be back - as a direct result of the greater hatred that Labour gets than the tories.

[eFestivals]

I agree with the first bit.

 

Are you saying that Ms Dugdale, like her gaffer before her, is " true Labour ". Surely not ?

 

Atleast we both support free tuition fees, no nukes and an end to austerity *

 

* by support I mean will vote in favour of   

 

#the "anti" that's more austere than Labour's 'pro austerity', you mean?

 

All that gets to prove is that you're a sucker for marketing over substance.