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The Dirty Independence Question


Kyelo
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there have been two very disturbing polls published recently - They are disturbing for different reasons & I am surprised that Neil has not picked up on them.

I did, just not in the detail you're now doing.

The relevant point of what these poll say towards the indyref is Scotland's politics isn't anyway different to the rest of the UK.

Which is what I've constantly being saying - that Scots are fooling themselves in thinking that voting indy will deliver them a meaningfully different political result. Political ideas in Scotland are very close to the rest of the UK.

English votes may kill off independence

ENGLISH voters living in Scotland could swing the result of the independence referendum in favour of the United Kingdom, according to a new poll.

brilliant - the makings of your next national myth. :lol:

The poll suggests slightly more Scots support than oppose independence (44% versus 42%, with 14% undecided) ahead of September’s vote.

It's a Panelbase poll - anyone with half a brain knows they're the least accurate of the Scottish polls.

The results of the first poll are deeply disturbing to me because they appear to contradict much of my case for independence

perhaps horrible Neil has been pointing out some truths to you all the while...? :P

and I await someone with more expertise than me analysing them - the second poll disturbs me because I wonder about the motivation for wanting to know this.

It's a Panelbase poll, Alex is probably suggesting the questions to them, and he's in need of a myth-making shield for his upcoming failure.

Was it really just curiosity that motivated the Sunday Times when they paid to have that question asked.

it's a Panelbase poll. You do know about Panelbase polls, don't you?

Alex can give you all the answers, but he won't.

ahhh, jobs over in Bath, a wonderful website.

You Scots DO love England after all - you wouldn't have much of an indy campaign without it. :P

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I think you need to go ask your mum to explain what independence actually means

Given that one aspect of being in the Union is membership of supra national organisations, one of whom is the European Union.

Therefore I'd maintain that voting Yes is not necessarily a rejection of all aspects of the current Union.

You'll be well aware of previous posts querying the meaning of any country's 'independence' in a world where sovereignty (another hazy term in the 21st century) is routinely ceded to supra national level.

Edited by Buff124
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Therefore I'd maintain that voting Yes is not necessarily a rejection of all aspects of the current Union.

But it is.

It's a rejection of everything about the union, and the chance to instead form new relationships - even if they're much the same.

Nothing of the old relationships carry over. Independence is the TOTAL rejection of everything of the union.

If you want to keep some union bits, then you need a referendum on a different question. The question you've got is the question Scotland voted to get.

Edited by eFestivals
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Nothing of the old relationships carry over. Independence is the TOTAL rejection of everything of the union.

If you want to keep some union bits, then you need a referendum on a different question.

I'm reminded of Paragraph 30 of the Memorandum of Agreement (aka the Edinburgh Agreement)

‘The two governments are committed to continue to work together constructively in the light of the outcome, whatever it is, in the best interests of the people of Scotland and of the rest of the United Kingdom.’

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‘The two governments are committed to continue to work together constructively in the light of the outcome, whatever it is, in the best interests of the people of Scotland and of the rest of the United Kingdom.’

So Trident stays at Faslane (for no cost to rUK), then? :P

That should make clear to you that you're taking what is says wrongly. If shared interests over-ride individual interests, please remind me why you wanted this referendum again? ;)

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So Trident stays at Faslane (for no cost to rUK), then? :P

That should make clear to you that you're taking what is says wrongly. If shared interests over-ride individual interests, please remind me why you wanted this referendum again? ;)

Having a nuclear weapons arsenal isn't in the best interests of rUK. :P

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Having a nuclear weapons arsenal isn't in the best interests of rUK. :P

what are the best interests is utterly subjective, and can be polar opposites each side of the border you'll be voting to create.

So if you took the wording of that agreement to mean anything of substance - and you did - more fool you. ;)

Edited by eFestivals
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apologies if my words ended up being crass in the light of your circumstances; they were making a point about your thinking, zilch else.

nae probs...just trying to avoid the thread sliding too much into Newman & Baddiel territory

EDIT: something I'm probably as guilty as anyone of.

Edited by Buff124
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what are the best interests is utterly subjective, and can be polar opposites each side of the border you'll be voting to create.

So if you took the wording of that agreement to mean anything of substance - and you did - more fool you. ;)

Nice article on the legality of the Edinburgh Agreement by Prof Christine Bell. From 2012.

http://www.scottishconstitutionalfutures.org/OpinionandAnalysis/ViewBlogPost/tabid/1767/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/431/Christine-Bell-The-Legal-Status-of-the-Edinburgh-Agreement.aspx

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Back to the border thing again. An administrative border already exists, and has done for a considerable period of time.

true - you voted to create that as a stronger division once already, and now you're wanting to make it an even greater division.

Scotland must be the only place on earth where divide and rule doesn't work, as Scotland will be utopia in 2 years time. :P

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lawyers have to earn their keep, and they'll back any horse that pays them.

If the lawyer had anything sensible to say, the lawyer would be telling us how it can work in all practical senses in a situation when both sides have diametrically opposed interests. ;)

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now you're wanting to make it an even greater division.

A re-negotiation of inter-national arrangements might be another way to put it ? Within the context of greater integration at supra-national level , to whit the European Union ?

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the lawyer would be telling us how it can work in all practical senses in a situation when both sides have diametrically opposed interests. ;)

Given that politics has famously been described as the art of the possible, I daresay that's political territory. As you said, lawyers are not the legislature.

'Diametrically opposed' seems a rather extreme characterisation of hypothetical post-Yes negotiations ? Can't think of too many European countries that the UK is diametrically opposed to. We even seem to get on ok with Spain, despite the ongoing tensions surrounding Gibraltar.

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A re-negotiation of inter-national arrangements might be another way to put it ?

Nope. A first negotiation of international arrangements, as there is no 'national' applicable to Scotland for around 2 years (if ever).

(I guess you could mention the Arbroath thing, but if you do don't forget you'll be agreeing to the clearly stated racism :P)

There will never be full agreement by both sides on all issues.

Within the context of greater integration at supra-national level , to whit the European Union ?

what each of are separate govts do with foreign policy is of no direct concern to the other. These will both be sovereign states, remember?

Any EU issues are discussed at EU level.

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'Diametrically opposed' seems a rather extreme characterisation of hypothetical post-Yes negotiations ?

not really, it's merely a recognition of the truth. It's always best to keep things rooted in reality and not fantasy.

They'll of course be things where we're on the same page, but that won't be everything.

For example, I presume that there's an anti-nuke majority in Scotland and a pro-nuke majority in rUK - and so the desires are diametrically opposed.

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true - you voted to create that as a stronger division once already, and now you're wanting to make it an even greater division.

Scotland must be the only place on earth where divide and rule doesn't work, as Scotland will be utopia in 2 years time. :P

Not sure why you think anyone would wish to be part of the Empire. We are a small country who have no interest in being a super power or ruling any waves....

Just the opportunity to rule ourselves would be fine for me. As has been said many times before there is no guarantee of a fairer more equal Scotland but with a working class majority voting I think there is a better chance.

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Not sure why you think anyone would wish to be part of the Empire. We are a small country who have no interest in being a super power or ruling any waves....

I'm not sure why you're agreeing to be empired then. Someone is drawing lines in your mind.

Just the opportunity to rule ourselves would be fine for me.

even if it's a hundred times more shit than the UK?

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I'm not sure why you're agreeing to be empired then. Someone is drawing lines in your mind.

even if it's a hundred times more shit than the UK?

Do you honestly think it could be 100 times more shit ? Really ??

From my previous post " As has been said many times before there is no guarantee of a fairer more equal Scotland but with a working class majority voting I think there is a better chance."

I have said on here before that I would not grudge big smug coupon his chance to run things * but to quote Jim Sillars SNP " with independence we would also have the opportunity to vote for a real labour party "

* for real.

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I'm not sure why you're agreeing to be empired then. Someone is drawing lines in your mind.

Morning neil,

Sounding a bit like Ukip this morning.

Has their Fox been in your henhouse?

Edited by LJS
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Do you honestly think it could be 100 times more shit ? Really ??

From my previous post " As has been said many times before there is no guarantee of a fairer more equal Scotland but with a working class majority voting I think there is a better chance."

I have said on here before that I would not grudge big smug coupon his chance to run things * but to quote Jim Sillars SNP " with independence we would also have the opportunity to vote for a real labour party "

* for real.

Don't be silly Comfy.

Neil will be along in a minute to explain that the Scots are really BNP supporters.

We're just too stupid to realise.

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iScotland - 100% more shite than the UK

It has a certain ring to it:

Neil maybe you should try & sell it to better together as their campaign slogan.

& just to cheer everone up, here is vote Nob orders latest Cinema advert neatly ignoring the onconvenient fact that the NHS Scotland has always been seperate from day 1

http://youtu.be/ptIlmq1co5o

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