Beer tent clearance on Sunday night

[elfskin]

The reason security used the dogs in the bar, was because various incidents were kicking off at that point that required immediate attention. For example, despite being very clear about no naked flames on all our literature, someone was letting off fireworks in the wheat field - there were other incidents occuring which are standard for the last night of any festival when people have been drinking all weekend - the point is that they were all at once, as the site was being shut down.

Security had asked several times for the bar to be cleared, had met resistance of an unpleasant sort and made a decision to bring the dogs in. A lady in the bar went to pat one of the dogs and was told on 3 occasions not to come near the dog. She then lunged/slipped towards the dog and the guard pushed her back to keep her away from the dog. People then took this to be an assault and a situation developed, which was dealt with by one of the guards calming everyone down and diffusing the situation.

TOTAL BOLLOCKS !!!

What the f**k have fireworks in the wheatfield got to do with out of control dogs and an assault in the beer tent.

Security were not in the tent until the dogs burst in, there was no unpleasantness until a girl nearly got bit in the face and another girl was assaulted.

The girl was not told three times to not come near the dog, she just approached the handler and was punched away. She did not slip she was assaulted.

I saw everything that happened from the dog attacking the couple on the table to the guy with the dog assaulting the girl and everything that followed.

Am I the only one who smells bullshit !!!

[greeneyes1980]

yeah but there is the problem, you aint gonna get security to admit shit and they will have a reason for everything.

[eFestivals]

The use of attack dogs at a family Festival where children are running around is just wrong in any circumstance. You were very lucky on Sunday night, people could have got seriously injured.

sorry, but "attack dogs", and "lucky"??? While I understand that you're pissed off at what happened, you're certainly stretching what you say to the limits of credibility. You say "attack" dogs when I would think you have no proper knowledge of their training or their handler's training, and surely "attack" dogs would be attacking, and if they're not "attacking" then it's surely not down to things being "lucky" but down to those dogs being properly restrained - you cannot have it both ways.

What happened in the bar sounds plain wrong if I take every word of what you say as things that actually happened. However, the security did not - from what you have said - set out to use violence against anyone, and the one act of theirs that you might consider violence you (maybe it was someone else?) are also able to acknowledge as being for the better protection (as compared to getting perhaps chomped by the dog she was moving towards) of the person involved. And the dogs were properly restrained and not set on anybody; dogs bark, that's what they do.

While you might want to see those things as over the top, things would have surely been very different if the security were out of control as you also state. If they were out of control then there'd have been punching and there'd have possibly been people getting bitten. Neither of these things happened, from what you have said.

You or someone has said that the woman who was pushed was moving to within an unsafe distance from possibly agitated dogs; does that person's responsibility for their own actions in doing this (surely a thing most kids know before they're five?) not come into this somewhere too?

I'm not trying to justify anything that shouldn't have happened, but similarly perhaps you should apply a little perspective and not over-state things.

Edited August 12, 2008 by eFestivals

[Interface]

Pepper spray? Stabbings???? What ARE you talking about?????

The incident I will make sure is looked into, but as I've said before, alarmist posts will be taken for what they are and disregarded. Clear information however will be gratefully received.

[eFestivals]

What the f**k have fireworks in the wheatfield got to do with out of control dogs and an assault in the beer tent.

there are a limited number of security personnel. If some are dealing with one incident then they're not available to deal with something else, meaning that others might get assigned to the second task.

C'mon - stop being blinded by your red mist and apply the same common sense you're saying was lacking at EIID over one seemingly isolated incident over a whole weekend.

[greeneyes1980]

gotta say i agree with Neil on this

[eFestivals]

Why were ESP security walking around in stab vests?

you want to feel safe at a festival with great security. Don't you think that the security are also allowed to feel safe while they go about their job?

Whatever other valid gripes you might have, this isn't to me a valid gripe of any sort. You might as well go about saying that all builders want to kick your head in just cos they're wearing steel toe-capped boots.

[greeneyes1980]

well no not quite i mean if they were all riot geared up you would take the opinion they were ready for a riot kinda thing, is what i am getting.

but i dont really see how you can complain about vests. as has been shown at T unfortunatly some people carry knives and security are the most likely to be on the arse end of it

[William of Walworth]

I recognise that this year I can't know more than what I read on line, and that any individual account will be that of one person with one perspective.

But my direct interest in this is that I want to come back to Endorse It next year. And I will, for sure, but I remain very sceptical that dogs are needed at Festivals under any circumstances, and my view would be that their use runs the risk of inflaming situations, and might run the risk making matters worse, and could easily be counterproductive. OK point taken that this beer tent situation may have been a one off, but in the face of it at least, it does sound like things weren't handled the best they could to say the least.

Dogs, especially counterproductive if -- I stress if --- their handlers lose it, as MAY have happened this time at one point.

I repeat that the last time I saw Security with dogs at any festival** was a very long time ago. Their use seems entirely unnecessary surely?

**(as opposed to dogs with Police -- where whatever ones' doubts about sniffer dogs, or 'crowd control' dogs they are always trained and always with trained handlers AFAIK)

I do acknowledge that almost all accounts stress that almost all Security were fine almost all the time at Endorse It this year. It shouldn't be that difficult for the few problems to be ironed out and I have real condidence in Flounder and the other organisers that they will be.

I reckon an undertaking that personnel do not carry handcuffs and that dogs should not be used next year (are they REALLY needed for Perimeter patrol even????), and a reiteration of the need for Security to be as low key and chilled as possible whenever possible**, would be more than sufficient.

Most Security at Endorse It are well aware of this need as far as I've seen -- last year mainly, and also, as far as I could see, in 2006 too. There's not much that's need to be straightened out.

** (ie except in REALLY extreme situations, and was last Sunday night really that? I only ask ... )

ETA on reread of the above : Sorry, apols to Flounder if this reads like me being just an arsey punter who wasn't even there, telling an experienced organiser how to run his festival. I'm just trying to be constructive is all, in the hope that what's good about Endorse It (all of it IME, last year!) will be repeated in 2009 ....

I love this festival and wish it the very best, and want to come back year after year, it's not nice to read of even one occasion where things may have gone wrong.

Edited August 12, 2008 by William of Walworth

[eFestivals]

Dogs, especially counterproductive if -- I stress if --- their handlers lose it, as MAY have happened this time at one point.

if the handlers had lost it then we wouldn't be having the conversations we're having.

They didn't lose it: no one was attacked in this incident, by either the security staff or the dogs.

That isn't saying what has been reported here was justifiable, if it happened exactly as stated by some. But then again it didn't happen exactly as stated by some, because they've used emotive language to over-state the incident as much as they possibly can.

** (ie except in REALLY extreme situations, and was last Sunday night really that? I only ask ... )

while it's impossible for anyone who wasn't there to know whether it was an extreme situation or not, it's also - from what's been said by those complaining the loudest - impossible for them to really know what happened either.

Security say (as posted by flounder) they'd tried to clear the bar to no effect before this incident happened; some of those inside the bar say no attempt was made to clear the bar before this incident happened. One of these is obviously false. But which one??

I fully accept that security have a vested interest in their version; but the fact is the other side also have a vested interest in their version (tho I'll accept less of one).

But on top of that, is it really possible for anyone to authoritatively say that something they didn't see didn't happen? It's possible that security did try to clear the bar to no effect, and if they did try to clear the bar to no effect then it's very possible that some people in the bar didn't see them trying to clear the bar, because if they had done they'd have possibly left. Others had obviously left - why did these others leave? These are thing we will perhaps never know for sure.

[Tallula]

We were in the bar about 10min before this incident and security were asking people to leave in not too much of an aggressive way but you could tell they wanted it clear, thats why we left. I can't believe they brought dogs in though that was totally wrong any kind of aggressive dog around adults who may have been drinking is madness(most dogs don't like the unpredictabilty)

[elfskin]

sorry, but "attack dogs", and "lucky"??? While I understand that you're pissed off at what happened, you're certainly stretching what you say to the limits of credibility. You say "attack" dogs when I would think you have no proper knowledge of their training or their handler's training, and surely "attack" dogs would be attacking, and if they're not "attacking" then it's surely not down to things being "lucky" but down to those dogs being properly restrained - you cannot have it both ways.

[elfskins back]

Well, Elfskin has been silenced and barred from posting on E Festival forums.

Gagged by a Festival website for speaking out about a serious incident.

I was going to post this before I was gagged.

sorry, but "attack dogs", and "lucky"??? While I understand that you're pissed off at what happened, you're certainly stretching what you say to the limits of credibility. You say "attack" dogs when I would think you have no proper knowledge of their training or their handler's training, and surely "attack" dogs would be attacking, and if they're not "attacking" then it's surely not down to things being "lucky" but down to those dogs being properly restrained - you cannot have it both ways.

Edited August 12, 2008 by elfskins back

[eFestivals]

Well, Elfskin has been silenced and barred from posting on E Festival forums.

no, Elfskin has been put on moderation and *NOT* banned, for taking this issue into every other forum here, when this issue has not yet been addressed here and where it's nothing to do with those other festivals. Any issue that is spammed across forums in this manner is dealt with in this manner, so that these forums are good for their purpose and aren't hijacked for any other purpose .... normally it's spammers that have to be actioned in this way.

Keep it where it's relevant and you're not being silenced. Once the issue has been fully addressed here - flounder is still looking into things - if there's an issue which impacts on all other festivals as you appear to want it to, then you can speak to me about how it can best be raised on eFestivals (which is much more than just these forums - they're only a tiny bit of the readership) in a manner that's reasoned and not designed to scare.

[elfskins back]

There is a huge issue to be addressed here in regard to the use of dogs and handcuffs by private security firms at Festivals.

I think a poll amongst the ticket buying public is more than relevant in the circumstances.

My polls were deleted, denying thousands of people their say on the matter.

It's not just me that's being gagged.

Edited August 12, 2008 by elfskins back

[eFestivals]

I have been around enough to know the difference between a deterrent dog ( trained only to bark and never to bite ) and an out of control personal protection dog.

yeah, and I can tell which men are bad just by looking at them.

Flounder has stated that, and I quote, " the dogs were not authorised by EiiD to be used on the site for clearance ."

So they over-stepped the mark and operated outside the conditions set by the organisers.

Questioning my credibility in light of an admission that dogs were used in a completely inappropriate situation without the permission of the Organisers is well out of order.

over-stepping the mark set by the organisers proves nothing as to whether they over-stepped the mark far further as you have said.

You credibility has only been questioned in relation to the emotive language you've chosen to use, which says nothing about what actually happened and only says something about how you want to portray what happened.

Like I said, you where lucky.

not me. eFestivals has nothing whatsoever to do with the running of EIID; we simply give them some money for them to spend as they see fit in order that the festival is a little better than it might otherwise be. We ask for nothing in return.

eFestivals, and me personally, is as concerned as anyone else about this incident. However, dogs are sometimes used at festival sites (just cos you haven't seen them doesn't mean they're not there), and incidents like this and far worse than this happen at festivals up and down the land every weekend - did you know, for example, that two people were seriously injured at a festival in Scotland at the weekend? Far more important. Yes, it was a gas explosion, so perhaps caused by their own negligence, but that would be a far more worthy and relevant topic to raise across all forums in the manner you so love.

I'm not trying to lessen this incident, but shouting at anyone that'll listen doesn't do anything particularly positive to address what might have happened here, and the wider and much greater issues related to security at festivals, issues that EIID seems to be mostly free of, affect far more people and are far more in need of addressing than what appears to be an isolated incident which was at least in part brought about by circumstances at the time (and where those circumstances might include a contribution by the people in the bar that failed to hear &/or follow an instruction to leave).

[eFestivals]

There is a huge issue to be addressed here in regard to the use of dogs and handcuffs by private security firms at Festivals.

I think a poll amongst the ticket buying public is more than relevant in the circumstances.

My polls were deleted, denying thousands of people their say on the matter.

It's not just me that's being gagged.

you are not being gagged.

You are trying to raise an issue in places where, in eFestivals opinion, it has no relevance. Are dogs used at Summer Sundae? No. So it's not an issue for the Summer Sundae forum.

If you think it's so important to raise with people reading the Summer Sundae forum then you're perfectly welcome to do it and you're perfectly free to do it. You are just not free or welcome to do it on these forums, because the eFestivals editorial decision is that it's nothing to do with that festival. Live with it.

If there's an issue about this that needs raising to every festival-goer, then posting it in every forum will not achieve that. If and when you know that it's an issue that needs raising with every festie goer, get in touch with me and it'll be raised - but not as your inconsidered rant, but in a way that might actually have the desired effect.

Edited August 12, 2008 by eFestivals

[toniviagra]

Flounder I am not alarmist- quite the opposite in fact. The riot police have stab vets and use CS gas for riot incidences and crowd control such as the picture you used in the programme ok - there is a long history of such occasion and these are associated with violent clashes aimed at the police - the miners riots a classic example

[elfskins back]

Course it was nothing to do with E Festivals.

Nothing to do with EIID either, they were told that the dogs would be used for perimeter duties and not crowd clearance.

Probably nothing to do with ESP either.

Don't worry, I don't think legal action will result, so you can all stop wriggling but a lesson needs to be learned here about what people find acceptable or unacceptable in terms of Festival security.

It didn't ruin what was an excellent weekend. I am emotive in my posts because I can still feel the outrage that we all felt in that tent when that girl was belted off her feet. Standing up to Security at a Festival is a new one for me but then you dont often see a woman being knocked off her feet by a grown man who is supposed to be there to protect people.

I have acted as an advocate many times for individuals and groups of employees and attempts to destroy the credibility of witnesses and organisations distancing themselves from the proceedings is standard.

I expect that from Government bodies and large corporate organisations but to see it in action from Festival organisers and a Festival website is a bit of an eye-opener.

There are serious discrepancies between the Security incident report and what we saw happen.

It is not just me that contradicts their version of events, other people, including a friend of the girl that was assaulted have posted on this thread supporting what we saw.

I appreciate the fact that it takes time to investigate something like this but the fact that this issue has had the most views of any topic on the front page of this forum, in about 24 hours, should be taken as a sign of peoples concern about the matters raised.

Dogs and handcuffs in the hands of private security firms at Festivals is an issue that will not go away and is relevant to any Festival goer, I never thought I would see it at Endorse it, if it can happen there it can happen anywhere.

Since when have democratic polls been Spam ?

Edited August 12, 2008 by elfskins back

[barbienightmare]

I wasn't there, but barbie's take on this seems very skewed to me. 'Hats off' to the man who knocked her down, WTF?

Edited August 12, 2008 by barbienightmare

[MsElf]

I'm sorry but i had to read post 8 sooooo many times my head feels like a bubble...is it meant to? or is it just me being tired?

(i'm not trying to be cocky or owt but WHAT?????)

----------------------

Apart from that i know things need to be resolved and i'm more than happy to speak to anyone involved with the festivals promoters about what i remember happened in the tent. i do find some of the comments by efestivals a little disturbing i must admit, but give Flounder a rest, i bet he feels like he's been face off with dogs at the moment.

The campervan field toilet problem i can understand peoples issues, and i suppose i was a little let down after last years provision. but i can cope with that (and no i've never Shitted by anyones camper/car or anywhere but the toilets provided)...however i can understand how some people were caught out! Not good.

And as for the noise...Well i sort of like it..... it goes with endorse-it for me..which is why i dont have a sound system i my own den.....the stewards next to use had some great tunes... and the ace old guy the other side, all on his own, soothing me with a little afro-celt.

i think it may be a good idea to have a quiet field/area next year for those who require it?

the other thing is yes fence hoppers..you'll always get them..thats whats happens at festivals....i remember my first fest's and i never paid to get in....i sat and talked to a couple of kids who had had the most exciting adventure getting in, they were great kids and had had a fabulous introduction into the festie world......their not all bad.....i don't begrudge them it because i paid full price...i still remember the thrill of being 15....especially listening to their story and seeing their joy.

yes of cause that has to be policed...but dont judge all kids by what the media tells you. Their not all knife welding yobbos like my parents thought we were.

But could we all so try to remember some of the really fabulous great moments we all had too? Because apart from all that i had a great time, and hope to have many more.

Edited August 12, 2008 by MsElf

[barbienightmare]

Major Fail in Logic skilz there barbie.

No-one's saying security shouldn't search or keep an eye out for bother.

But have them be lower key, politer, less lairy (as they were in 2006, 2007 -- and without dogs and handcuffs) and there'll be muggings, 50 dead, riots?

Yer talking utter shite.

[tartanterra]

like it or not about my opinion on the dogs its got nothing to do with this thread, Ive got your goat there and boy dont I know it.

and my point about the muggings, 50 dead etc, is that as there wasnt any of these over any of the years of endorset so then the security obviously did there job ... happy and polite or moody and gruff and even while being rude , either way with or without dogs , smiles or sulks from the security its been a pretty incident free lot of festival , the security did there job.

now take the security away , happy and grumpy and your going to be at risk of an incident or 2 or 3 or who knows how many , you obviously take me literally on my muggings 50 dead and cant see that its mearley an exagerated example to make a point, so in simple terms without security checking smiling or not there would be some problems with punters over the course of the weekend. to what extent you dont know.

your coming across as if you seem to be under the illusion that endorset is above ever having the slightest bit of trouble happen there.

you may well be and quite obviously are someone who is not in the buisness of being trouble of any kind and nor do your friends ..... great , me too , but it takes all sorts to make a world and not every one is nearly so socially balanced and behaved as yourself.

Im not disgracefully dissmissing the claims of the rude security Im simpley fed up of always hearing them dissed over most of the time quite minor things,

the fact of even bringing into it your thought process of why you were picked out to be searched, the 'was it the pronghorn t shirt half hearted comment ; that got my goat basicly, obviously there is a part of them that does mind being searched over the next person, Its not something that s ever in my head when im searched Im no different to anyone else there , why should I be.

now i did ask how they were rude because the manhandleing is not exactly clear or the extent of the rudeness.... If she had said the security either pushed me into a corner and told me to shut the f**k up or trod on my toe and laughed , nicked my money or whatever then I may well think... yes that is out of order ... (I can sense your going to take me to the word here on the pushing and toe treading bits again rather than just the drift of what Im saying )

if the complaint had a bit more substance than... hey thats awful, but a generlised , rude , agressive , intimidating can be interpreted at different levels needed to qualify.

if a simple thankyou and smile was all that was needed to have make it all right then it cant have been that bad a treatment.

and I think they were pretty low key , Ive seen plenty more of a presance at most other events Ive been too.

[tartanterra]

Yeah mate, God help your daughter, wife, girlfriend, friend in the same situation.

You can sit on your hands while a woman is assaulted in front of you and do f**k all, i probably saw you hiding at the back when it all kicked off.

Nobody told us to clear the bar and every real man in that tent stood up and faced off the goons.

Shame you weren't up there with us.

[Loodlini]

like it or not about my opinion on the dogs its got nothing to do with this thread, Ive got your goat there and boy dont I know it.

and my point about the muggings, 50 dead etc, is that as there wasnt any of these over any of the years of endorset so then the security obviously did there job ... happy and polite or moody and gruff and even while being rude , either way with or without dogs , smiles or sulks from the security its been a pretty incident free lot of festival , the security did there job.

now take the security away , happy and grumpy and your going to be at risk of an incident or 2 or 3 or who knows how many , you obviously take me literally on my muggings 50 dead and cant see that its mearley an exagerated example to make a point, so in simple terms without security checking smiling or not there would be some problems with punters over the course of the weekend. to what extent you dont know.

your coming across as if you seem to be under the illusion that endorset is above ever having the slightest bit of trouble happen there.

you may well be and quite obviously are someone who is not in the buisness of being trouble of any kind and nor do your friends ..... great , me too , but it takes all sorts to make a world and not every one is nearly so socially balanced and behaved as yourself.

Im not disgracefully dissmissing the claims of the rude security Im simpley fed up of always hearing them dissed over most of the time quite minor things,

the fact of even bringing into it your thought process of why you were picked out to be searched, the 'was it the pronghorn t shirt half hearted comment ; that got my goat basicly, obviously there is a part of them that does mind being searched over the next person, Its not something that s ever in my head when im searched Im no different to anyone else there , why should I be.

now i did ask how they were rude because the manhandleing is not exactly clear or the extent of the rudeness.... If she had said the security either pushed me into a corner and told me to shut the f**k up or trod on my toe and laughed , nicked my money or whatever then I may well think... yes that is out of order ... (I can sense your going to take me to the word here on the pushing and toe treading bits again rather than just the drift of what Im saying )

if the complaint had a bit more substance than... hey thats awful, but a generlised , rude , agressive , intimidating can be interpreted at different levels needed to qualify.

if a simple thankyou and smile was all that was needed to have make it all right then it cant have been that bad a treatment.

and I think they were pretty low key , Ive seen plenty more of a presance at most other events Ive been too.