Cricket

[kingbadger]

The return of our batting frailty and inevitable collapse is strangely comforting, feels like we're getting closer back to normal now its arrived. 

[Homer]

All going well here then! Going to be a long day, I feat. At least I may well get out for the jog I've been putting off.

[st dan]

Interesting chat (again) in our cricket clubs WhatsApp group over who is (or will be) the better all-rounder: Stokes and Flintoff.  

General consensus is that Freddie is the better bowler and Stokes the better batsman - do we agree?
Who would you choose if you could just have one - for me would have to be Freddie, regardless of the talent that Stokes has. 

[TheGayTent]

Stokes by a country mile. Not even a discussion. 

[kaosmark2]

Stokes. He's been a top player for a much longer period already.

[Homer]

Things are looking up. Anyone reckon we can get a draw? Pitch looks flat. Sunny out - may sit on the balcony and watch this all afternoon instead of going out!

[kingbadger]

On 7/10/2020 at 12:53 PM, st dan said:

Interesting chat (again) in our cricket clubs WhatsApp group over who is (or will be) the better all-rounder: Stokes and Flintoff.  

General consensus is that Freddie is the better bowler and Stokes the better batsman - do we agree?
Who would you choose if you could just have one - for me would have to be Freddie, regardless of the talent that Stokes has. 

Both are match winners, but Stokes looks like he's going to be better and for longer. Flintoff almost became a bowling all rounder, he was probably batting a place too high at 6 but then we weren't exactly blessed with a keeper who could bat there like we have been since with Prior, Bairstow etc. 

It's an unfair comparison really given the injuries that plagued Flintoff's career. If he had stayed properly fit then it could well be a different story, but he probably had too short of a peak due to injuries to properly judge.

Stokes won us the World Cup and Flintoff won us our first Ashes series in ages. 

I know its a 'what if' scenario, but imagine how good England would have been post-Ashes 2005 without the injury and mental health issues that blighted that side. Trescothick and Simon Jones still being available for selection, Harmison and Flintoff being able to properly fulfil their talent. Michael Vaughan being fit and able to continue as captain. Seeing the likes of Anderson, Prior, Cook, Swann etc adding extra quality to the side/squad. England could well have dominated world cricket for a sizeable length of time.

[Homer]

2 hours ago, kingbadger said:

Both are match winners, but Stokes looks like he's going to be better and for longer. Flintoff almost became a bowling all rounder, he was probably batting a place too high at 6 but then we weren't exactly blessed with a keeper who could bat there like we have been since with Prior, Bairstow etc. 

It's an unfair comparison really given the injuries that plagued Flintoff's career. If he had stayed properly fit then it could well be a different story, but he probably had too short of a peak due to injuries to properly judge.

Stokes won us the World Cup and Flintoff won us our first Ashes series in ages. 

I know its a 'what if' scenario, but imagine how good England would have been post-Ashes 2005 without the injury and mental health issues that blighted that side. Trescothick and Simon Jones still being available for selection, Harmison and Flintoff being able to properly fulfil their talent. Michael Vaughan being fit and able to continue as captain. Seeing the likes of Anderson, Prior, Cook, Swann etc adding extra quality to the side/squad. England could well have dominated world cricket for a sizeable length of time.

My mate lives in a Welsh village near Cardiff and knows Simon Jones (their kids went to school together. He's a really nice bloke apparently (he came down to my mate's awful village team and gave them all bowling and batting coaching). He still chats to my mate on text now, even though he's moved.

My other mate knows Richard Dawson - the latter said less complimentary things about Vaughany.

Another mate has got a selfie with Tuffers, said he was exactly how you would expect him to be. He was at a black tie do having a smoke outside and Tuffers came out and blagged a fag off them.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Homer

[Homer]

Anyway, looks like we are going to lose this!

[Homer]

2 hours ago, kingbadger said:

Both are match winners, but Stokes looks like he's going to be better and for longer. Flintoff almost became a bowling all rounder, he was probably batting a place too high at 6 but then we weren't exactly blessed with a keeper who could bat there like we have been since with Prior, Bairstow etc. 

It's an unfair comparison really given the injuries that plagued Flintoff's career. If he had stayed properly fit then it could well be a different story, but he probably had too short of a peak due to injuries to properly judge.

Stokes won us the World Cup and Flintoff won us our first Ashes series in ages. 

I know its a 'what if' scenario, but imagine how good England would have been post-Ashes 2005 without the injury and mental health issues that blighted that side. Trescothick and Simon Jones still being available for selection, Harmison and Flintoff being able to properly fulfil their talent. Michael Vaughan being fit and able to continue as captain. Seeing the likes of Anderson, Prior, Cook, Swann etc adding extra quality to the side/squad. England could well have dominated world cricket for a sizeable length of time.

We did alright in the end - that 2009 team that won the ashes down under and went to number one in the world was arguably a better team.

[st dan]

Hindsight time - if Broad plays ahead of Wood do you think we win that? 

Anyway - fantastic test match and well done to WI, the right outcome and the best team certainly won that. 

[kaosmark2]

1 hour ago, st dan said:

Hindsight time - if Broad plays ahead of Wood do you think we win that? 

Anyway - fantastic test match and well done to WI, the right outcome and the best team certainly won that. 

Yes, but if it was a decision made with forward planning and the idea to rotate Broad and Anderson, I don't think that makes it wrong.

The batting collapses are worse than the bowling issues anyway.

[st dan]

14 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

Yes, but if it was a decision made with forward planning and the idea to rotate Broad and Anderson, I don't think that makes it wrong.

The batting collapses are worse than the bowling issues anyway.

No I agree, it doesn’t make it ‘wrong’ as such, but I still think any team in any sport should always play their strongest side that they believe is most likely to win the next game - and for me that is still a pace attack including Broad and Anderson (with Archer). Especially a risk given it was the first test of a 3 match series. 

And yes, the batting collapses are now a real issue, I don’t think it matters who is even selected anymore, it’s engrained in the DNA at the moment, and there is no easy way out of it. 

[kaosmark2]

34 minutes ago, st dan said:

No I agree, it doesn’t make it ‘wrong’ as such, but I still think any team in any sport should always play their strongest side that they believe is most likely to win the next game - and for me that is still a pace attack including Broad and Anderson (with Archer). Especially a risk given it was the first test of a 3 match series. 

And yes, the batting collapses are now a real issue, I don’t think it matters who is even selected anymore, it’s engrained in the DNA at the moment, and there is no easy way out of it. 

I'm a huge fan of Archer, but I would pick Wood over him atm. I still think the logical thing would have been to rotate all 3 seam spots in a Anderson/Broad, Wood/Archer, Woakes/Curran set of pairings. Keeps a heavily experienced player, a 90+ pacer, and another swing bowler in.

The thing is, these middle order collapses have reappeared now the top order has got a bit more solid. I know English conditions are hard to score 400+ in, but there has to be something on a coaching side.

[kingbadger]

7 hours ago, Homer said:

My other mate knows Richard Dawson - the latter said less complimentary things about Vaughany.

Heard the same about Vaughan from those who have spoken to him as a current player when he's been media rather than someone who played with him. Was the number 1 batsman in the world for a while then went on to captain us to our first Ashes victory in years and gave us a memorable summer. After that his knee was shot to bits so the minimal cricket he played after kind of gets forgotten. To be fair most people do remember him without fault as a result, myself included. But seems like that's made/inflated his ego to the extent that he feels he's a cut above everyone else. 

[kingbadger]

Double post 

Edited July 12, 2020 by kingbadger

[kingbadger]

7 hours ago, Homer said:

We did alright in the end - that 2009 team that won the ashes down under and went to number one in the world was arguably a better team.

Not necessarily disputing that, what I mean is the period inbetween could have been even more glorious with that mix of talent. Imagine a fully fit Flintoff and Harmison operating on Aussie soil, with Simon Jones ready to take advantage of the old ball. Vaughan captaining and taking that weight off of Flintoff, a fit Trescothick with Cook also vying for a place in the team. Would have been a different story altogether. 

[TheGayTent]

Great game of cricket, sets the series and the summer up nicely 

[TheGayTent]

Denly dropped but no word on the bowling line up. Hmm 

[kaosmark2]

1 hour ago, TheGayTent said:

Denly dropped but no word on the bowling line up. Hmm 

Anderson and Wood rested. Archer, Stokes, and 2 from Broad/Woakes/Curran/Robinson. I'd go with Broad/Curran so the left-armer can create footholes for Bess, but Woakes is still an excellent bowler if picked.

[kingbadger]

Makes it seem so odd they went with Archer/Wood in the same game at the Rose Bowl when I imagine Old Trafford is going to be much more suited to a pair of express pace bowlers.

Not surprised at Denly being dropped, he's never looked Test quality really despite doing his best. Out of the horrendous run of number 3 batsmen we've had he's done the best job as a stopgap but can see why they've gone for Crawley. Imagine unless he has an appalling run then the number 3 position is his for the summer. Even if it goes wrong it'll be tempting for them to stick Lawrence or even Bracey in there if it's just for the odd game or two at the back end of the summer. 

[st dan]

Naughty Jofra ... 

https://www.skysports.com/cricket/news/12123/12029463/jofra-archer-excluded-from-england-west-indies-second-test-for-bio-secure-breach

So that will be that then - Broad, Woakes, Curran, Stokes?

[TheGayTent]

36 minutes ago, st dan said:

Naughty Jofra ... 

https://www.skysports.com/cricket/news/12123/12029463/jofra-archer-excluded-from-england-west-indies-second-test-for-bio-secure-breach

So that will be that then - Broad, Woakes, Curran, Stokes?

Silly billy. 
Pace overkill to zero in a week - never dull ! 

[TheGayTent]

If only we had an obdurate number 3 who could hang around a long time, see off the new ball and protect the middle order 

[kaosmark2]

1 hour ago, TheGayTent said:

If only we had an obdurate number 3 who could hang around a long time, see off the new ball and protect the middle order 

While I agree with the relevance of Denly, it'd also help if batsmen didn't throw their wickets away against a spinner who doesn't spin the ball!