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guypjfreak
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OK so it's everywhere but I personally think it is getting a bit out of control in the news etc. 

Please let kids grow up being little boys and girls playing with toys be that Lego.. Barbie.. Or action man.. Let them be our little princess or Prince and if as they grow up they feel different then let's talk about it then let's not have it shoved down there throats before they have had time to be what they are children.. Pure and simple beautiful children.. 

 

 

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I assume you're referring to the news that she will raise her children as gender neutral. I'm genuinely interested as to what makes you believe that this approach does not let 'kids be bloody kids' and how you think it fucks up their lives? Hope to hear your response.

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Not read anything about this, how does it work?

In principle I can't see any problem with it really, so long as the kids are happy and balanced that's the most important thing.

I have some technical queries...

How do gender neutral clothes work? Do you just have a mix of boy and girl stuff to mix and match, or is there like a gender neutral style of dress? 

What's a gender neutral haircut?

How do you explain to your gender neutral kid about gents/ladies toilets?

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Its simple really, which makes it all the more baffling when people get so angry about it. With regards to the technicalities brought up - its a case of not imposing ideas but allowing the freedom of choice to contribute towards a happy and balance childhood, as mentioned.

Despite the child's 'gender assignment', they are free to choose whether to wear their hair short or long. Free to choose whether to play with dolls or toy cars. Free to choose whether to wear a dress or a tshirt and shorts. Free to express themselves as they wish. Free to discover and be themselves. Really not all that shocking or damaging when put like this, eh?

In short, it is the removal of the (in my opinion) negative notion that having a certain sexual organ or being called John instead of Jane should dictate your identity as a human being in the world.

Edited by jyoung
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21 minutes ago, jyoung said:

Despite the child's 'gender assignment', they are free to choose whether to wear their hair short or long. Free to choose whether to play with dolls or toy cars. Free to choose whether to wear a dress or a tshirt and shorts. Free to express themselves as they wish. Free to discover and be themselves. Really not all that shocking or damaging when put like this, eh?

In theory I agree with you.

The reality tends to be different, because any kid will have other people's ideas pushed onto them whether they're meaning to or not. It's one of those unavoidable consequences of interacting outside of the family group.

For all the time there's a society we might nudge it in the right direction but no one's going to be making a giant leap.

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12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The reality tends to be different, because any kid will have other people's ideas pushed onto them whether they're meaning to or not. It's one of those unavoidable consequences of interacting outside of the family group.

Of course. In today's society, in the present tense, the child isn't going to roam around and live an untouchable life of free existence, eternal happiness and inner peace without ridicule or opposition. Kids are gonna point fingers and laugh while asking why Jane has 'boys hair' and why John plays with barbies. That will of course, sadly, influence these tiny little human brains and alter their perceptions.

That's why we have to be positive and encourage them to make make their own choices and to be kind to each other. Respect and understanding etc. It starts at home and the kids brought up with this freedom will be far too busy expressing themselves to ridicule John or James. So yeah. I know what you mean, it is not without its difficulties but I wouldn't avoid it simply because of opposition. I think its a worthwhile cause.

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I work in a nursery and we had a lad who came in every day in an Elsa (frozen film) dress over his clothes. Usually played with the girls in their make believe stuff, but sometimes with the boys. Never ever heard any child mention it - he was who he was to them. Its the adults that are likely to be more judgemental. No idea how he's transitioned in to school, but would be intrigued to know.

It's all about not stereotyping - my son had his toy cars, garage etc but also a play kitchen. When my daughters came along they loved playing with his old "boys" stuff. There was no conscious aim to be gender neutral or anything - I dressed my son in boys stuff and girls in girls stuff - they soon get to an age where they tell you what they will or won't wear. Couldn't get my daughter out of wellies for a good while - clearly has some Glastonbury in her lol.

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3 hours ago, shuttlep said:

Girls who are boys , who like boys to be girls

Who do boys like they’re girls, who do  girls like they’re boys

Always should be someone you really love

 

Ahead of its time in so many ways.

 

As for Paloma, she can try, but it's pretty tricky.  I'm not sure what "raising your child as gender neutral" actually means and I suspect it varies massively between parents.  As for myself, I have tried pretty hard not impose my own preconceptions onto my daughter, but I often catch myself calling her "beautiful" and "kind" a lot more than "strong" or "brave".  And well before she turned two, it was clear she was a lot more girly than either myself or my wife.  Whether nature or nurture, I've no idea, but it was pretty obvious our parental desires were fairly dwarfed by wider societies influence and her inherent characteristics.   We bought her boys' toys and girls' toys and she seemed to gravitate towards the toys and activities for her gender.  For example, when she did play with her cars, it was usually to put them to  bed!

This reminds me of the idiotic response when John Lewis decided to stop gendering their clothes.  It's ridiculous that people seemed to have such a problem with being able to buy Paw Patrol pyjamas for their daughters without buying "boys" clothes.  We just bought the boys' pyjamas, my daughter doesn't seem to care, she thinks they're "pawsome"

However, if she's aggressively pushing back against what her children actually want, for example, banning both doll's houses and cars, then that would be a bit weird, but we've not actually got an examples of what Paloma plans to do.  If it's as simple as never saying "No, that's girl/boy [object/activity]", then I don't see a problem.

 

I say good luck to Paloma and her partner in trying not to let societies preconceptions limit her children's potential, but as most things with parenting, she might find it harder than she thinks!

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There's a huuuge amount of confusion out there that this is some kind of trans rights issue, which is way off the mark in my opinion.  Most of the motivation I hear from other parents is aimed at limiting the massive dysfunction that is limiting both girls and boys.  From the massive drop of women in STEM to the toxic violence from men, the preconceptions of childrens' interests and potential is the issue that's being addressed here - at least from everyone I know.

It's not about turning all our children into transvestites or suicidal intersexers.

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7 hours ago, guypjfreak said:

 

Please let kids be bloody kids don't start fucking up there lives before they are even born. 

 

That's what letting a kid a be gender neutral is though, letting a kid be who it wants. 

On the other hand, current culture makes kids feel like that they have to like pink or blue; have to wear certain clothes; have to like certain toys, films and culture; and have to have a certain personalty; all based on what a scan says "before they are even born".

Edited by Chawk
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15 minutes ago, Will-2609 said:

True but at least most threads aren't this ignorant.

Well, it's quite a controversial topic, so may well draw out comments which fall in to different schools of thought. It's also, to my mind, is a chance for people to further their education, not only on this subject, but in the self realization that their individual point of view, is not necessarily aligned to that of the consensus majority, despite them thinking that it is.

Oh, and Glastonbury isn't on for ages, we all like talking to each other (although that may be one of those disillusional perceptions that I mentioned earlier), and that if we don't talk about something then this site really will turn in to Tumble Weed City. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

Well, it's quite a controversial topic, so may well draw out comments which fall in to different schools of thought. It's also, to my mind, is a chance for people to further their education, not only on this subject, but in the self realization that their individual point of view, is not necessarily aligned to that of the consensus majority, despite them thinking that it is.

Oh, and Glastonbury isn't on for ages, we all like talking to each other (although that may be one of those disillusional perceptions that I mentioned earlier), and that if we don't talk about something then this site really will turn in to Tumble Weed City. 

 

 

Yeah true on that point. The existence of the thread is probably a good thing in that regard, but the reason it was made is bit rubbish to me. I can't see why people would see this as a bad thing.

There are three outcomes here, basically:

1. The child feels like the gender it is born as, in which case they'll live the same life as they would have done if they were brought up as that gender.

2. The child feels like the opposite gender, and being brought up gender neutral it will have much more freedom to live their life this way and feel much more supported in doing things that aren't seen by society as something they should be doing purely because of their gender.

3. The child feels somewhere in between and, as in outcome 2, they will have much more freedom and support to live their life this way.

Thinking that this is "fucking up there lives" is frankly ridiculous to me. It could save them a lot of emotional turmoil on the off chance they don't feel like the gender they're born as, and if not then it'll make no difference to their lives.

You'd think on a Glastonbury forum we'd be more open to this kind of thing. We've all seen the complaints about major festivals having an unfair representation of women. One of the main reasons for this is that females aren't encouraged to pick up the guitar or learn to play the drums or whatever as a child, because of gender norms. Bringing up children as gender neutral would help with this as, for example, a girl who loves metal music and wants to become a drummer would probably be more encouraged to do so rather than being pushed to do something that's seen as more girly by her parents.

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1 hour ago, Will-2609 said:

You'd think on a Glastonbury forum we'd be more open to this kind of thing. 

Yes, but being open also means that you take on board that other people have other points of view.

It's a tricky one this, in that, it's not a subject that we have any mass data on what the outcome of raising a child gender neutral will effect. There has been, in the history of time, some known public examples of adults who have been raised gender neutral, but they are very few. I mean, it's possible in the future, that this wave of people brought up as gender neutral, will have major issues with the fact that they were raised that way. Nobody knows. I think that this is why it's such a contentious issue. 

 

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