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Children learn through play. Most toys up to about 18 months are often not gender specific. Whatever is wrong with widening your child's skills through the use of toys that are generally thought to be for the opposite gender. That child will find autonomy quite quickly to say "I prefer x or y" toys or clothing and at that point the parent should go with it. But without experimenting they will just go along with societies expectations for that gender. I see it more as raising an individual rather than forcing stereotypes on them, but maybe I'm wrong. 

 

 

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12 hours ago, guypjfreak said:

Poster says it all old son.. 

 

As Will says its not about them making a gender choice or hiding their gender from them. And call me cynical but I dont think that child actually created that poster, just an adult using a child to make their own point - that doesn't really sit well with me.

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6 hours ago, slash's hat said:

As Will says its not about them making a gender choice or hiding their gender from them. And call me cynical but I dont think that child actually created that poster, just an adult using a child to make their own point - that doesn't really sit well with me.

This is precisely what Paloma is doing by making this public announcement, this is not about the welfare of her child just a ridiculous way of her expressing her desire to promote LGBT issues and to be seen as a modern parent. She could have easily kept this decision private and raised her child without the glare of publicity, by refusing to disclose the childs sex and announcing to the world her intention to treat it this way she is opening herself and her child up to unneccessary speculation in the press. Children need love and guidence not to be part of some bizarre social experiment.

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There was a well documented experiment recently. A little girl and a little boy were dressed in clothing of the opposite gender and then adults engaged with them in play. The adults uniformly played with the child dressed as a boy by presenting "him" with construction toys and perhaps playing "catch" they played with the boy dressed as a girl with dolls and make believe. It is not kids that have a gender problem, it is adults.

I don't believe that Ms Faith is conducting any kind of "social experiment", merely trying to enable her child to grow up feeling loved and supported.

You may for example, have noticed the number of children who follow their parents into either creative, caring or scientific roles in society. I don't for one moment believe this a genetic predisposition to that kind of role, it is learned. What else are our children learning from us? It seems they are learning to follow gender appropriate roles. Perhaps the greatest engineer ever to be born has become a single mum working in a call centre twenty hours a week (nothing wrong with this work in itself but you don't want the next IK Brunel cold calling to flog drainage insurance do you?)

Limiting our children limits us.

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1 hour ago, gizmoman said:

This is precisely what Paloma is doing by making this public announcement, this is not about the welfare of her child just a ridiculous way of her expressing her desire to promote LGBT issues and to be seen as a modern parent. She could have easily kept this decision private and raised her child without the glare of publicity, by refusing to disclose the childs sex and announcing to the world her intention to treat it this way she is opening herself and her child up to unneccessary speculation in the press. Children need love and guidence not to be part of some bizarre social experiment.

She hasn't said this is how she is raising her child in order to promote the message though. It has become public because "news" agencies would not let go of the fact she was protecting their privacy as a family by not revealing the name or gender of her child. She gave birth in December and only now has explained why they have not given information out about their child ( not that they should feel obliged to in the first place). 

It is the press that are sensationalising it all. She has not said this is the "right or wrong" way - just her way. Not seeing things/roles as gender specific is surely the message a child raised by same sex couples will receive? Is that wrong too? 

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9 hours ago, slash's hat said:

And call me cynical but I dont think that child actually created that poster, just an adult using a child to make their own point - that doesn't really sit well with me.

Right? "Stop forcing ideas on kids" says the person adding an agenda to a picture of a kid holding up a picture that they've drawn. It fucking beggars belief. :lol:

Edited by dentalplan
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20 hours ago, slash's hat said:

Children learn through play. Most toys up to about 18 months are often not gender specific. Whatever is wrong with widening your child's skills through the use of toys that are generally thought to be for the opposite gender. That child will find autonomy quite quickly to say "I prefer x or y" toys or clothing and at that point the parent should go with it. But without experimenting they will just go along with societies expectations for that gender. I see it more as raising an individual rather than forcing stereotypes on them, but maybe I'm wrong. 

 

 

Wish I could put it like that 

That's exactly right let them play with what they like and learn to be who they are.. Exactly what I agree with.. 

Unfortunately at the moment there no end of stuff in the papers and the news etc saying very young children should gender neutral..... This is a a label in itself and I don't think young children should have to be or have a bloody LABEL of ANY sort apart from being YOUNG HEALTHY AND HAPPY.. If when they grow up they want to be gay, lesbian, or trans then crack on but ALL... ALL I'm saying is let them grow up first... 

It doesn't have to be in every paper on every news story.. 

That's all 

 

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I find it hard to figure out whether this is almost a 'fashion' thing, and therefore able to be swayed by the vagaries of fashion. Or, is it an expression of not only the zeitgeist of the day, but the true representation of a mushrooming societal movement that will develop / last over time.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, guypjfreak said:

Wish I could put it like that 

That's exactly right let them play with what they like and learn to be who they are.. Exactly what I agree with.. 

Unfortunately at the moment there no end of stuff in the papers and the news etc saying very young children should gender neutral..... This is a a label in itself and I don't think young children should have to be or have a bloody LABEL of ANY sort apart from being YOUNG HEALTHY AND HAPPY.. If when they grow up they want to be gay, lesbian, or trans then crack on but ALL... ALL I'm saying is let them grow up first... 

It doesn't have to be in every paper on every news story.. 

That's all 

 

Sounds like you agree with the general neutral idea old son. You've identified a problem with the tabloid press more than parenting. 

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8 hours ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

I find it hard to figure out whether this is almost a 'fashion' thing, and therefore able to be swayed by the vagaries of fashion. Or, is it an expression of not only the zeitgeist of the day, but the true representation of a mushrooming societal movement that will develop / last over time.

 

 

 

I think if you want to delve deeper into the whole notion of "boys" and "girls" products you will find its all about marketing pressure. Days gone by kids played with pots and pans or simple things like yo-yo's or god forbid conkers with their evil health and safety risks. Basically there was nowhere near the selection of toys available now. 

Look at a photo for example from 1800's  and babies were in a dress no matter what gender. Early 1900's boys colour was pink as it was seen a stronger colour and girls blue. Not sure at what point that swapped. Even as adults we females are presented with pink packets of razors (at a premium price) for something that does exactly the same as men's.

So yes press are jumping on this "neutral" idea now and linking it to sexualisation in order to make a story. But it was marketing that brought about the whole gender specific thing in the first place.

Of course societies expectations of male and female roles has influenced the marketing strategies, and is something that is slowly breaking down. Though it does somewhat irk me that Lego recognising girls like building things too has resulted in having their own range in pink and purple. Two steps forward one step back.

 

Edited by slash's hat
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14 hours ago, slash's hat said:

She hasn't said this is how she is raising her child in order to promote the message though. It has become public because "news" agencies would not let go of the fact she was protecting their privacy as a family by not revealing the name or gender of her child. She gave birth in December and only now has explained why they have not given information out about their child ( not that they should feel obliged to in the first place). 

It is the press that are sensationalising it all. She has not said this is the "right or wrong" way - just her way. Not seeing things/roles as gender specific is surely the message a child raised by same sex couples will receive? Is that wrong too? 

Just before the release of her new album, the cynical might see this as a publicity stunt, but I'm probably being a bit unfair on her, of course she has the right to raise her kids as she sees fit and the press may well have exaggerated the gender neutral angle but I think she should keep her private life private. I like Paloma, have seen her a few times but she could do with following Bjork's example (an artist with a similar profile and outlook) and refuse to comment on her personal life,  protect your family from the press.

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47 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

.  I mean, in concrete terms, what changes in parenting will it mean?

Hopefully none old son.. Hopefully the children will grow up as children do and go through the same feelings as children do and overcome those feelings in their own way... 

 

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42 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I'm still none the wiser as to what the opponents of raising a child as 'gender neutral' actually think it entails.  I mean, in concrete terms, what changes in parenting will it mean?

I'd be interested in an answer to this too, although, not having any children, I'm not exactly au fait with any kind of parenting. Still, it would be interesting to know. I guess that jyoung has touched on it on the first page. Of course, all that's been mentioned assumes a child is within a family environment. Unfortunately this isn't always the case, which raises the question as to whether children in 'institutions' are being denied this choice / life option by us all who demand that a system of care is in place for them, but are happy for the 'restrictive' status quo to continue. Can these institutions cope / resource such a change in direction?

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The only thing that needs to change for this to become the norm is peoples way of thinking. There's no special equipment or anything. We have already seen labels change in the workplace, firefighter rather than fireman for example.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/991ea351-1e67-46dc-824d-a13033 describes an experiment carried out in a school.

There are obviously those who take things to the extreme, as with everything in life, but the child's gender shouldnt be hidden from them - it's about not saying you can't do this or that because of their gender. Think Billy Elliott.

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10 hours ago, slash's hat said:

Morrissy is just a grade A tosspot anyway ( other opinions may vary ^_^). 

He's got a point on the monarchy though.

I'm at a different office from my usual, south of Watford Gap, and was offered a smartly wrapped biscuit today, they were handing them out to everyone.

As I pocketed it, I asked what it was for. "The Queen's 70th wedding anniversary" apparently. My response of "You're fucking kidding me" didn't go down to well. I'm too scared to eat it incase I choke.

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17 minutes ago, Gnomicide said:

He's got a point on the monarchy though.

I'm at a different office from my usual, south of Watford Gap, and was offered a smartly wrapped biscuit today, they were handing them out to everyone.

As I pocketed it, I asked what it was for. "The Queen's 70th wedding anniversary" apparently. My response of "You're fucking kidding me" didn't go down to well. I'm too scared to eat it incase I choke.

I'm glad I'm not eating a biscuit right now. I don't know, but heavily suspect, that it's difficult to do so while laughing. 

I've more than likely told this before, so excuse me if I have. It starts with someone I know who was working for a firm who were, in turn, were working for Cadbury's. Anyway, he is told to attend a major meeting in Cadbury's board room in Bournville. He turned up and the meeting started amicably enough. Then it got progressively worse, until people were shouting at each other over the table. He thought to himself 'I know what I'd do'. And what did he do? He smashed his fist on the table, causing all in the room to go quiet, and said 'Lads, lads, it's only chocolate'. This was not what anybody else in the room wanted to hear. As career moves go, it was quite spectacular, to my minds eye.

 

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10 hours ago, guypjfreak said:

Hopefully none old son.. Hopefully the children will grow up as children do and go through the same feelings as children do and overcome those feelings in their own way... 

 

As much as I share your hopes, that doesn't really help my understanding. What are your fears that gender neutral parenting could mean?  Can you give specifics and examples?

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3 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

As much as I share your hopes, that doesn't really help my understanding. What are your fears that gender neutral parenting could mean?  Can you give specifics and examples?

Ok I'll try 

Please note that all this crap about toys and clothes is not a problem. all kids should play with what ever they want and if a young girl wants to be what we would call a tomboy then crack on that's kids my grandkids and my kids were no different 

But 

If a young child say 7/8 thinks that he or she wants to be a different sex I think that at this perticular time with all the stuff in the press that they the parents would be under pressure to go ahead and allow the children to have say hormone treatment or as in America to go ahead with gender reassignment.........Which if you had watched the program the other day seems to be the way things are going........ This I think is wrong with such young children.. Kids often change there minds one day a boy next a girl next day a doctor,nurse,teacher, astronaut they can not get tattoos they can not get piercings so why is it that we should think it OK to change their sex.. WHEN maybe some will just grow out of it into beautiful young people. 

I just think like every thing they should be allowed to grow into adults  before they or the parents make such life changing decisions. I realise that SOME children KNOW that they are in the wrong body so to speak but still I believe that the parents should support them and at the same time encourage them to wait and grow.. 

Please note I've got fuck all against trans lesbians or gays my friends boy has decided to be a girl hey ho he was a great and will probably be a great girl but he has waited till he was 18 to come out and go for the whole body reassignment.. 

I hope this explains my point of view old son.. I'm not great with words so if it comes out wrong.. Unlucky.. Lol. G

 

 

 

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