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Workers Rights at Glasto under Question

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On 05/07/2017 at 11:00 PM, HalfAnIdiot said:

Some of the views on here astound me and are akin to the victorian mill owners of old. Capitalism fucks workers if it is unregulated. 

In this so called enlightened  age we should not be seeing people trek half way across Europe for only 8hrs of guaranteed work!

Are you happy to be part of this? 

2 downvotes for this! Wow, best not post anything that challenges the norm!

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1 minute ago, frostypaw said:

People have been saying exactly that and asking those questions since Page 1... are you reading the same thread?

I am dissapointed, angry even, with the muted response to this issue here. I had hoped for more. This just feel like some right-on middle class dinner party at times.

 

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14 minutes ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

I am dissapointed, angry even, with the muted response to this issue here. I had hoped for more. This just feel like some right-on middle class dinner party at times.

Most of the posters here have been around the festival for a LONG time so are aware of the post-festival litter picking arrangements, so rather than immediately running for the torches and pitchforks it was obvious something was up with the reports.

Don't mistake that for the regulars not caring about this stuff - they do intensely and fiercely on the whole - it would just have been extremely surprising to find the festival deceiving people so, and so it it seems that scepticism was well founded. I'm confident that if it turned out that the festival HAD lied and promised much more work than was forthcoming people would be pretty damn pissed off

Edited by frostypaw
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1 minute ago, frostypaw said:

Most of the posters here have been around the festival for a LONG time so are aware of the post-festival litter picking arrangements, so rather than immediately running for the torches and pitchforks it was obvious something was up with the reports.

Don't mistake that for the regulars not caring about this stuff - they do intensely and fiercely on the whole - it would just have been extremely surprising to find the festival deceiving people so, and so it it seems that scepticism was well founded. I'm confident that if it turned out that the festival HAD lied and promised much more work than was forthcoming people would be pretty damn pissed off

I'm not sure what the length of service has to do with this, if it matters I've 'been around the festival' for quite some time. Your post appears a little patronising (perhaps thats just me tho).

Operational arrangements for the festival have changed substantially over the years. I am concerned about the direction of travel.

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2 minutes ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

I'm not sure what the length of service has to do with this, if it matters I've 'been around the festival' for quite some time. Your post appears a little patronising (perhaps thats just me tho)

Nothing nasty - as I said in the post you just quoted that we've been around a while means we know how the post-festival litter pick goes and the nature of the contracts involved. 

I can understand your concerns, but what's happened to damage your faith in it so much that you'd expect them to have turned around from being mostly decent to full on worker-abuse?

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29 minutes ago, frostypaw said:

Nothing nasty - as I said in the post you just quoted that we've been around a while means we know how the post-festival litter pick goes and the nature of the contracts involved

I can understand your concerns, but what's happened to damage your faith in it so much that you'd expect them to have turned around from being mostly decent to full on worker-abuse?

Nothing I have read hear indicates that anyone has detailed knowledge of the nature of the contracts involved. Loads of speculation, sure, but no actual knowledge.

If you do know perhaps you could fill me in. When did Critical Waste take on the litter picking contract? What is their scope? Is there a bonus system? Is there a risk sharing arrangement? Who recruits the staff and what promises are made by the recruitments agencies? Have these promises changed over time?

It is possible to run ethical cost effective profit making businesses. I have my doubts about CWT and I feel that GFL are turning a blind eye (yup, there I go again criticisng GFL - how many downvotes do you think I'll get?).

 

 

Edited by HalfAnIdiot
typo
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8 minutes ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

Nothing I have read hear indicates that anyone has detailed knowledge of the nature of the contracts involved. Loads of speculation, sure, but no actual knowledge.

If you do know perhaps you could fill me in. When did Critical Waste take on the litter picking contract? What is their scope? Is there a bonus system? Is there a risk sharing arrangement? Who recruits the staff and what promises are made by the recruitments agencies? Have these promises changed over time?

It is possible to run ethical cost effective profit making businesses. I have my doubts about CWT and I feel that GFL are turning a blind eye (yup, there I go again criticisng GFL - how many downvotes do you think I'll get?).

 

 

OFP you just look stupid downvoting me. Move on.

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10 minutes ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

Nothing I have read hear indicates that anyone has detailed knowledge of the nature of the contracts involved. Loads of speculation, sure, but no actual knowledge.

Fairly sure a couple of folk have posted who've worked the litter pick.... and I'm fairly sure GFL will be having a proper hunt internally for anyone who gave out the impression there was any guaranteed length of work - though of course that should have become clear at the point people took contracts and should have come up then,  not when it did.

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8 minutes ago, frostypaw said:

Fairly sure a couple of folk have posted who've worked the litter pick.... and I'm fairly sure GFL will be having a proper hunt internally for anyone who gave out the impression there was any guaranteed length of work - though of course that should have become clear at the point people took contracts and should have come up then,  not when it did.

I lack your confidence in GFL, its a large orgaisation with many competing priorities. I would feel more comfotable if Critical Waste, who depend greately on casual labour, made a statement and also had a published ethical policy towards their staff.

The so called 'gig economy' is overall beneficial to big business and disadvantagous to the workers. It should be challenged, particulaly when linked to an organisation that expouses and practices strong ethical behaviour in other areas.

I wonder if OFP is out of votes yet?

 

Edited by HalfAnIdiot

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It's very odd to read the responses on the "are Tories welcome at Glastonbury" thread, and then to visit this thread. The contrast is quite incredible, the Tory thread gives you the impression that everyone is a fully paid up member of Momentum and then you visit this thread and it's the most disappointing read imaginable. It's amazing how people opt in and out of their belief system when it suits. 

Halfanidiot you are a hero. 

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8 minutes ago, ticketboy69 said:

It's very odd to read the responses on the "are Tories welcome at Glastonbury" thread, and then to visit this thread. The contrast is quite incredible, the Tory thread gives you the impression that everyone is a fully paid up member of Momentum and then you visit this thread and it's the most disappointing read imaginable. It's amazing how people opt in and out of their belief system when it suits. 

Halfanidiot you are a hero. 

I'm far from a hero but thanks anyway.

I completely share your puzzlement as to the contrast between the two threads. 

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3 hours ago, ticketboy69 said:

It's amazing how people opt in and out of their belief system when it suits.

Maybe you're over simplifying other people and they're not so black and white.

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7 hours ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

OFP you just look stupid downvoting me. Move on.

Thanks DeanoL for the downvote. 

Trying to silence me?

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1 hour ago, frostypaw said:

Maybe you're over simplifying other people and they're not so black and white.

But he is spot on.

You yourself are expressing a belief. You argue that I should not critique GFL or CWL and because other people know better. But you have no actual knowledge of this 'better', no evidence to offer, only blind belief.

Debate with me if you want to but don't try to close me down for your belief.

(Expecting the downvotes again from those active on the other thread. I would truly appreciate some reasoning)

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13 hours ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

At last! That is exactly what I am highlighting.

There is a distinct lack of will to question GFL on these boards coupled with a distinct lack of concern for the interests of these migrant workers.

This all comes accross as people living in a self-interested self-absorbed bubble of comfort.

I (wrongly) expected a greater degree of social responsibility around these parts and a willingness to challenge those that don't apperar to be taking these responsibilities serieously. But only find myslef dissapointed.

 

I'm more than happy to criticise GFL, would be the first to call them out if they were doing something wrong here. As I said, if the workers were promised work to get them to travel to the UK, and this then failed to materialise, then, of course, that it is completely and utterly wrong. But I haven't seen any evidence of that being the case. 

This kind of work can only ever be on a casual basis - how can you offer people contracts of guaranteed work when you don't know how long the work can take, and staff are only required for a few days? Every similar event must take the same approach.

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13 hours ago, frostypaw said:

I was making a gag just then.

ahh well. I use smileys to indicate that there's more than just words which you think make me c**t, and you don't which works the same. 

And gags are normally funny. 

Seems there's more than one imperfect round here and it's news to some. :)

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13 hours ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

At last! That is exactly what I am highlighting.

There is a distinct lack of will to question GFL on these boards coupled with a distinct lack of concern for the interests of these migrant workers.

and yet it's not "at last". I've explicitly said the same thing previously in this thread.

If there was a false promise about how much work there is, it was wrong to mislead. But if it was merely "there might be a weeks work" then the workers are at fault for taking what was said wrongly.

Edited by eFestivals

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13 hours ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

I am dissapointed, angry even, with the muted response to this issue here. I had hoped for more. This just feel like some right-on middle class dinner party at times.

 

I've called out *everything* raised in this thread that I think is wrong.

My first post touched on the fact that some wouldn't call things out.
I said that any misleading would be wrong.
I've said that banning ZHCs would be wrong because they have a purpose.

There's been plenty of dancing around by some - afraid to damn their heros in festival world and/or beardie world :rolleyes: - but even so there's actually naff all that's been done wrongly (if no one has really been misled) that needs damning.

13 hours ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

Operational arrangements for the festival have changed substantially over the years. I am concerned about the direction of travel.

The only difference I can see between today and 30 years ago about litter picking is that there's now contracts that guarantee some work when there used to be none.

(personally I think the paperwork is just a waste of everyone's time and no meaningful improvement for the workers).

12 hours ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

The so called 'gig economy' is overall beneficial to big business and disadvantagous to the workers.

True. But the litter-picking after Glasto is not anything of "the gig economy". It's standard short-term work where the length of work is determined by what needs doing.

'The gig economy' is about the casualisation of on-going & endless work to make greater profits that used to be done and can be done on permanent contracts. The two things are not the same.

10 hours ago, ticketboy69 said:

It's very odd to read the responses on the "are Tories welcome at Glastonbury" thread, and then to visit this thread. The contrast is quite incredible, the Tory thread gives you the impression that everyone is a fully paid up member of Momentum and then you visit this thread and it's the most disappointing read imaginable. It's amazing how people opt in and out of their belief system when it suits. 

Halfanidiot you are a hero. 

I can't disagree that there's some big hypocrisy going on across these two threads, but I've yet to see anyone - you included - pinpoint any wrong doing with the litter picking.

Perhaps you'd like to detail what you think has been done that's wrong?

 

10 hours ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

I completely share your puzzlement as to the contrast between the two threads. 

Then perhaps you'd like to detail what you think has been done that's wrong?

Even if they'd used ZHCs nothing would have been done that's wrong. There's nothing wrong with the use of ZHCs (tho there is wrong in wanting to ban them, and there's wrong with how some employers use them).

Edited by eFestivals

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I think HAI is on about the tone of both threads... not necessarily what's been said ...The other is filled with vitriol by some as it's easy to attack an ethos you can't possibly believe in i.e. Tory voters and yet on this one the minute the other messiah GF/ME, (the first one being JC) has been called into question about how he is running the contracted services and in my book he/they are ultimately responsible then it's a whole different story.

 

Either you believe in left wing politics and JC then all well and good but don't choose the policies that you are so behind and apply them to big corporate business owners but they don't apply to GF /ME because he's a cool bloke and allows you to party on his farm so hard .

 

I'm not sure what's happened here but if the ZHC has been used , I don't know ,then the hypocrisy stinks... and calls into question ME /EE.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

I think HAI is on about the tone of both threads... not necessarily what's been said ...The other is filled with vitriol by some as it's easy to attack an ethos you can't possibly believe in i.e. Tory voters and yet on this one the minute the other messiah GF/ME, (the first one being JC) has been called into question about how he is running the contracted services and in my book he/they are ultimately responsible then it's a whole different story.

 

Either you believe in left wing politics and JC then all well and good but don't choose the policies that you are so behind and apply them to big corporate business owners but they don't apply to GF /ME because he's a cool bloke and allows you to party on his farm so hard .

The difference, is, of course, that Michael has a 50 year history of "doing the right thing" rather than being a self-serving greedy c**t, as some employers are. The festival is the success it is not because of his skill at businesses or marketing, but by him being that strongly-decent and fair* person. The loyalty he's getting here has been earned in a way few earn it.

(* I'm sure sometimes he's not, he's only human. But in general he must be, else he'd not have the loyalty he does from his team).

At the same time - I know, because i've experienced it personally - I know he's a rather typical 'hard nosed farmer'* who has firm idea of what he thinks is right and wrong, that he doesn't welcome anyone intruding into what he feels is his business, and that he drives a hard bargain. He's certainly no one's mug.

(* I don't mean that in a derogatory way, just as a description of a type of character).

Quote

I'm not sure what's happened here but if the ZHC has been used , I don't know ,then the hypocrisy stinks... and calls into question ME /EE.

He says the workers had minimum-8-hours contracts, but even if they were ZHCs I'd have no issue with it.  

I've always thought that banning them is a daft idea, and this thread isn't the first time I've said it. I'm quite happy to criticise what i feel is bad policy from any party.

But yeah, I have seen a bit of ... erm ... mental gymnastics in this thread. (If you want to see world champion standard, just ask a young Corbynista about Jezza's want of hard tory brexit :P).

Edited by eFestivals

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1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

He says the workers had minimum-8-hours contracts, but even if they were ZHCs I'd have no issue with it.  

I've always thought that banning them is a daft idea, and this thread isn't the first time I've said it. I'm quite happy to criticise what i feel is bad policy from any party

From what I know about ZHC they seem to work for a lot of people and I have no problem with them.. my point though is how strongly ME/JC want them outlawed and if GF has done this no matter who this was contracted out to then the buck must stop with GFL 

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1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I've always thought that banning them is a daft idea

You can't ban the requirement for work such as cleaning up after the festival. You can't ban the requirement for bar staff at concerts, football matches or any other occasional or infrequent event. I don't believe that the promise to "ban zero hour contracts" is contradictory to that. There will always be a need for flexible working both on the part of business and for the convenience of workers like students, single parents or even semi-retired people. Zero hour contracts are nothing to do with that but are abused as a way of guaranteeing a flexible pool of workers for some businesses  like restaurants or care homes. Plainly that is wrong and unfair. Casual work is another matter and I don't believe that the intention to "ban zero hour contracts" is in any way some attempt to ban casual work.

As for calling GF/ME to book on this as has been stated many times in this thread GF/ME has a considerable track record of "doing the right thing" indeed the money not spent on these litter pickers will not go into the farm accounts but to charity.

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16 hours ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

I am dissapointed, angry even, with the muted response to this issue here. I had hoped for more. This just feel like some right-on middle class dinner party at times.

 

 

What issue, exactly? You're comparing two very different things - most of us agree ZHC are shit, but you're suggesting the festival abused them in a similar way sports direct did for example in a blanket coverage 'all ZHC must be banned'...  Fixed contract or not picking up litter is not a permanent job like retail work, there is only a finite amount of litter to pick up.

the overseas workers booked their own return flights, the ones from Spain stayed in London for three days 'before the festival' - I note it omits that they may have actually attended too, all of which reduces a significant amount of the income they likely hoped to receive for two weeks work, which to me does not seem like a logical plan for a stable income even if it were fixed contracts for a fortnight. 

so to be honest it feels like a cheap and easy witch hunt because Corbyn attended the festival, and a lot of people don't like Glastonbury because they see it as super middleclass. People who dislike both will love that perceived hypocrisy, but I'm keen to see more analysis, figures for how many also attended the festival, figures for how many actually came from overseas, etc. yet it all seems to have gone quiet, almost like there isn't actually a story to be had.

Edited by FrancisH

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1 hour ago, babyblade41 said:

I think HAI is on about the tone of both threads... not necessarily what's been said ...The other is filled with vitriol by some as it's easy to attack an ethos you can't possibly believe in i.e. Tory voters and yet on this one the minute the other messiah GF/ME, (the first one being JC) has been called into question about how he is running the contracted services and in my book he/they are ultimately responsible then it's a whole different story.

 

Either you believe in left wing politics and JC then all well and good but don't choose the policies that you are so behind and apply them to big corporate business owners but they don't apply to GF /ME because he's a cool bloke and allows you to party on his farm so hard .

 

I'm not sure what's happened here but if the ZHC has been used , I don't know ,then the hypocrisy stinks... and calls into question ME /EE.

 

 

But why would it stink? We know for a fact that ZHC were not used, because the festival has stated all workers were given temporary worker contracts and guaranteed 8 hours work. But even if they were, the post festival clean up is a limited task which will only ever take between a couple of days (this year) and two weeks (last year) ZHC would in fact suit a job that will only ever have a very very short time frame down to the ground, but even then the workers were given something better. If ME has the people that milk his cows on ZHC then that would stink, as that is an ongoing job that has no time limit, but as far as we know he doesn't. The only issue here was if migrant workers were lured over on the promise of one or two weeks work, and this is something I don't think we will ever know for sure. 

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Just now, Deaf Nobby Burton said:

But why would it stink? We know for a fact that ZHC were not used, because the festival has stated all workers were given temporary worker contracts and guaranteed 8 hours work. But even if they were, the post festival clean up is a limited task which will only ever take between a couple of days (this year) and two weeks (last year) ZHC would in fact suit a job that will only ever have a very very short time frame down to the ground, but even then the workers were given something better. If ME has the people that milk his cows on ZHC then that would stink, as that is an ongoing job that has no time limit, but as far as we know he doesn't. The only issue here was if migrant workers were lured over on the promise of one or two weeks work, and this is something I don't think we will ever know for sure. 

I'm only saying if ZHC was used and abused,  as I don't know what happened here

 

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