Brexit Schmexit

[zahidf]

ermmmm Didnt Davis say in parliament that they had done incredibly detailed assessments:-/

 

[eFestivals]

42 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

If it was as likely they would have called it. They knew it wasnt as likely. Maybe a percived "sane" outcome from what ultimaetly proved after the event to be an insane choice.

It wasn't guaranteed. That's enough to stop it.

The outcome of May as PM is the standard political outcome from the system the UK works to, no differently to how your own governing party will sell its principles if need be to get a coalition partner.

 

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Nothing to do with my country. They are horrible bigots

which only demonstrates how weak that "one Ireland" idea is, and not only with the DUP.

If it's not one Ireland what are the DUP doing wrong by acting as tho it's not?

I've got no love for the DUP, but they're no less allowed to act in their own interests as everyone else.

 

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She called the election and didnt get the result she so arrogantly expected. She fucked up.

yep. 

But now we are where we are. There's no solution in talking history that can't be changed.

 

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She should have got the boot for her misjudgment and mishandling of the election.

if the tories had given her the boot i doubt there'd be any Ireland solution.

May might be shit, but she's very probably the best hope that 'one Ireland' thing has.

 

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Its all on her. She did not have to call it and she would be in a stronger position today had she not. That is a fail

yep.

Meanwhile your PM didn't have to go into coalition with a dodgy fuck, but did anyway.

These things happen. It is what it is. They have to be worked with.

 

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I never want to see parties I disagree with in government. I disagree with them for a reason. Thats not to say that it cant happen and suggesting that I believe the rules should be different so they cant is utter bollox. I can voice an opinion as to why I believe its not ideal to have a party such as the DUP sharing power without thinking the system should prevent such parties sharing power. 

No one thinks it's ideal, not even May. It's why she wanted "a strong mandate".

But the numbers are what they are, and they're the numbers to work with. If May wasn't sucking up to the DUP then it would be Labour who were having to. The numbers define it, not anything else.

 

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Irish PMs in my lifetime have nearly always had to placate a minor partner, or as it is currently, a majority in opposition. Thats politics. 

No shit sherlock.

So at least accept the reality of where the UK is. 

 

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Ultimately the fuck up here is with decisions of the last two Tory leaders.

I don't see how you can say that it wrong for a politician to hold a public vote where that public vote was won. The fact it was won justifies the vote, or democracy doesn't exist.

 

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In that context one hopes if the electorate gets their chance again they will tell the Tories no thanks

and if they did?

There's no better solutions being offered by labour, and they'd (under Corbyn) piss off the DUP and by *MUCH* more than anyone else.

It's worth remembering that when violence has kicked off in NI, it's been the proddies who are first at it. If you don't want a return to the violence of the past, then accommodating the DUP to a reasonable degree is the way to best ensure it.

Edited December 6, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, zahidf said:

ermmmm Didnt Davis say in parliament that they had done incredibly detailed assessments:-/

 

just because they don't meet your own definition of "detailed" doesn't mean they're not that to another.

How much detail do you think can be in 15 pages for any sector? It was always known they totalled around 800 pages.

Don't blame others for your own inability to put what is said in context.

[zahidf]

15 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

just because they don't meet your own definition of "detailed" doesn't mean they're not that to another.

How much detail do you think can be in 15 pages for any sector? It was always known they totalled around 800 pages.

Don't blame others for your own inability to put what is said in context.

ermmm Davis says they havent been done at all. So zero detail. 

 

Not even not done, that they havent even been started!

Are you seriously saying Davis isnt being dishonest?

Edited December 6, 2017 by zahidf

[LJS]

50 minutes ago, zahidf said:

ermmm Davis says they havent been done at all. So zero detail. 

 

Not even not done, that they havent even been started!

Are you seriously saying Davis isnt being dishonest?

the only problem is working out when he was lying!

[zahidf]

3 minutes ago, LJS said:

the only problem is working out when he was lying!

 

 

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, LJS said:

the only problem is working out when he was lying!

man talks up his own work and importance, shocker? 

Sturgeon has supposedly done some economic impact assessments for Scotland, and promised to publish them. She also carried out an expensive 'national conversation', but it seems to have fallen to a mute to hold that conversation.

Who would have thought politicians could tell porkies?

[ThomThomDrum]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

 

The outcome of May as PM is the standard political outcome from the system the UK works to, no differently to how your own governing party will sell its principles if need be to get a coalition partner.

 

No Shit Sherlock  I think we all know why and how coalitions form. We can still give out about the ones we dont agree with

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which only demonstrates how weak that "one Ireland" idea is, and not only with the DUP.

If it's not one Ireland what are the DUP doing wrong by acting as tho it's not?

I've got no love for the DUP, but they're no less allowed to act in their own interests as everyone else.

.

Of course they can act in any way they want and we can give out about it if we wish. Yes, they are acting in their own interests. A small group of bigots from a small part of the UK are doing what is expected on them and saying No. No surprise there

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yep. 

But now we are where we are. There's no solution in talking history that can't be changed.

 

No Shit Sherlock  But this is a thread about Brexit, not on just solutions to Brexit, so you are going to get a lot of talk about history and blame etc etc. Deal with it.

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if the tories had given her the boot i doubt there'd be any Ireland solution.

May might be shit, but she's very probably the best hope that 'one Ireland' thing has.

No one can say if thats true or not. No point talking alternative histories/futures

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Meanwhile your PM didn't have to go into coalition with a dodgy fuck, but did anyway.

 

? What are you talking about? 

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No one thinks it's ideal, not even May. It's why she wanted "a strong mandate".

But the numbers are what they are, and they're the numbers to work with. If May wasn't sucking up to the DUP then it would be Labour who were having to. The numbers define it, not anything else.

No Shit Sherlock  The "we are where we are shite" still doesnt mean folk wont piss and moan about it. Are you really saying that people should not come on here and vent, but only offer up solutions in the context of where we are? What? On the off chance that someone of importance is reading this thread and runs with one of those solutions?  

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So at least accept the reality of where the UK is. 

 

That can be both accepted and "given out about" at the same time.

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I don't see how you can say that it wrong for a politician to hold a public vote where that public vote was won. The fact it was won justifies the vote, or democracy doesn't exist.

 

It was wrong for Cameron to hold a referendum to placate some dicks in his backbenchs. And Mays goal for the election was to strengthen the Tory position, not weaken it. Goal not achieved, thus fail. 

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and if they did?

There's no better solutions being offered by labour, and they'd (under Corbyn) piss off the DUP and by *MUCH* more than anyone else.

Who knows? Answer = No, one. No matter what you think. I dont think anyone here has claimed to know the answer or claimed that anyone in the opposition knows the answers.

But no point giving out about where we are, eh? We are where we are and thats that. Live with that reality and shut up if you dont have any solutions to offer........... 

Edited December 6, 2017 by ThomThomDrum

[zahidf]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

man talks up his own work and importance, shocker? 

Sturgeon has supposedly done some economic impact assessments for Scotland, and promised to publish them. She also carried out an expensive 'national conversation', but it seems to have fallen to a mute to hold that conversation.

Who would have thought politicians could tell porkies?

Has she told those lies to parliament? Is there a vote in parliament asking for those documents?

All banks/companies have done the assessments btw. And the EU

I was wondering when youd jump to blame corbyn and/or sturgeon!

Davies looks to be in trouble at the mo

Edited December 6, 2017 by zahidf

[Wooderson]

David Davis is worse than Brexit.

[eFestivals]

57 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

We can still give out about the ones we dont agree with

I'm more interested in getting to a solution than I am shouting off against those I disagree with in the process. I accept their right to their input, whether in a deal a deal with the tories or not.

 

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Yes, they are acting in their own interests.

As is Ireland.

 

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A small group of bigots from a small part of the UK are doing what is expected on them and saying No. No surprise there

They might be (are) bigots, but their position here is nothing to do with bigotry.

 

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But this is a thread about Brexit, not on just solutions to Brexit, so you are going to get a lot of talk about history and blame etc etc. Deal with it.

when there's something to blame on brexit blame away.

The DUP problem is to do with UK politics, and where their position for post-brexit isn't unreasonable.

 

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No one can say if thats true or not. No point talking alternative histories/futures

That's not talking any alternative or future, it's the here & now - where i'm not seeing anyone with a better plan (that could actually work).

Jez? At best, same plan as May, but with a bigger pissed-off factor for the DUP. It takes us further away, not nearer.

 

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? What are you talking about? 

last week's 'crisis' that (supposedly) nearly brought down the Irish govt.

 

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No Shit Sherlock  The "we are where we are shite" still doesnt mean folk wont piss and moan about it.

Yep, like the DUP. And you.

 

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Are you really saying that people should not come on here and vent, but only offer up solutions in the context of where we are? What? On the off chance that someone of importance is reading this thread and runs with one of those solutions?  

no, but intelligent comment is always better than the same "tories fucked up in the past" and "May's shit". We know those things, those things are not new.

 

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That can be both accepted and "given out about" at the same time.

It was wrong for Cameron to hold a referendum to placate some dicks in his backbenchs. And Mays goal for the election was to strengthen the Tory position, not weaken it. Goal not achieved, thus fail. 

It was wrong for Cameron to hold a ref to placate his own party, yep.

But it was perfectly valid to do it because there was a clear-majority public demand for one (which there was), because all parties had promised one at one time or another, and with the final proof of the demand for one given in the victory.

It wasn't wrong (using only foresight) for May to hold an election. She planned to sideline the tory brexit headbangers with a bigger majority, and polling said she'd do that easily. Things would be so much easier right now if she'd done that.

If she'd not had an election, she couldn't command a majority for a (her) 'sensible' version of brexit - which is why she felt she needed an election. We wouldn't be in a much different place.

 

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Who knows? Answer = No, one. No matter what you think. I dont think anyone here has claimed to know the answer or claimed that anyone in the opposition knows the answers.

But no point giving out about where we are, eh? We are where we are and thats that. Live with that reality and shut up if you dont have any solutions to offer........... 

If they had a solution, they'd offer it. Or they're more interested in power than they are a sensible outcome for the country.

It's one of the other. Either way, it's not good.

May nearly got there the other day, and still might do. If Ireland actually cared for NI, it could help with that but all i'm hearing is self-interest, not (island of) Ireland's interest. Much like the DUP as it happens.

Edited December 6, 2017 by eFestivals

[Wooderson]

Ireland is clearly defending integrity of GFA Neil.

[eFestivals]

41 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Has she told those lies to parliament? Is there a vote in parliament asking for those documents?

i believe so (the first Q), yes. Certainly to the Scottish people, who she promised to share the results with.

 

41 minutes ago, zahidf said:

All banks/companies have done the assessments btw. And the EU

But you're wilfully misunderstanding why the UK would do assessments, and what they'd be assessing.

What they wouldn't be assessing particularly is the negative impacts. What would be the point? 

The assessments would not be about judging the sanity of brexit, they're about what needs to be done to achieve the brexit that's already been agreed upon.

 

41 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I was wondering when youd jump to blame corbyn and/or sturgeon!

Corbyn is offering nothing. He's not even opposing.

 

41 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Davies looks to be in trouble at the mo

Yep, could be. Which probably only makes a half-decent outcome less likely.

Remember those polls about the money? That's a platform for boris, that'll round up enough noise to really fuck things up.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, Wooderson said:

Ireland is clearly defending integrity of GFA Neil.

Nothing different could be said for the DUP. They've indicated that they'll accept the status quo in Ireland for the border.

One of the problems is that there's no status quo to be had, because by accepting EU regs forever-more, Dublin gets say over NI while NI gets no say at all.

Care to say where the GFA says that?

So not really the integrity of the GFA. It can't be had, unless the UK stays in the EU.

Edited December 6, 2017 by eFestivals

[pink_triangle]

54 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

 

Of course they can act in any way they want and we can give out about it if we wish. Yes, they are acting in their own interests. A small group of bigots from a small part of the UK are doing what is expected on them and saying No. No surprise there

 

The SNP or lib dems could have come to an agreement with the torys which would have made DUP votes unnecessary. Do they shoulder any of the blame for the influence of the DUP?

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The SNP or lib dems could have come to an agreement with the torys which would have made DUP votes unnecessary. Do they shoulder any of the blame for the influence of the DUP?

and Labour too.

[zahidf]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

i believe so (the first Q), yes. Certainly to the Scottish people, who she promised to share the results with.

 

But you're wilfully misunderstanding why the UK would do assessments, and what they'd be assessing.

What they wouldn't be assessing particularly is the negative impacts. What would be the point? 

The assessments would not be about judging the sanity of brexit, they're about what needs to be done to achieve the brexit that's already been agreed upon.

 

Corbyn is offering nothing. He's not even opposing.

 

Yep, could be. Which probably only makes a half-decent outcome less likely.

Remember those polls about the money? That's a platform for boris, that'll round up enough noise to really fuck things up.

Ok, but has anyone asked her for them? are u saying she definitely lied?

negative impacts of different types of brexit (e.g, of leaving the SM, CU e.t.c)

and thats almost beside the point. Davis and the Govt (as above) lied about it to parliament.

[zahidf]

5 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The SNP or lib dems could have come to an agreement with the torys which would have made DUP votes unnecessary. Do they shoulder any of the blame for the influence of the DUP?

Would the Tories do the same if Labour was in the same situation? 

SNP has a solution, to cancel Brexit. Its the Tories mess, are u seriously saying their opponents should help them out of it?

[zahidf]

Brexit is a fundementally terrible idea, and all the issues as to the Irish border and economy were told beforehand.

If the Tories want to do it, its their idea, so up to them to sort it out.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

Ok, but has anyone asked her for them? are u saying she definitely lied?

I've no idea if anyone';s asked her for them. With the ever-loving saps that snippers tend to be, probably not. But yes, what she said she'd do she hasn't done. 

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

negative impacts of different types of brexit (e.g, of leaving the SM, CU e.t.c)

even that doesn't necessarily apply, of covering the differences.

May had supposedly decided the form brexit would take - so they only need to deal with impacts from that situation.

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

and thats almost beside the point. Davis and the Govt (as above) lied about it to parliament.

he talked them up. 

If we're going to lock politicians up for bullshitting or exaggerating, we need another election cos we've got no MPs.

He might get nailed for bullshitting and you'll have a giddy spell dancing around calling him the same liar you thought he was before any of this.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Would the Tories do the same if Labour was in the same situation? 

SNP has a solution, to cancel Brexit. Its the Tories mess, are u seriously saying their opponents should help them out of it?

Difficult one, this.

In a grown up world, a political party would accept the whole-UK** vote that happened*, and despite their opposition to brexit &/or the form of brexit the tories wanted, would work with the tories for brexit (respecting the will of the people*) but to try to shape it towards a version of their liking.

(* in that grown up world, there'd have been less bullshit used by the brexit campaign, too).

(** and the SNP would respect that Scotland had recently self-determined to be part of those whole-UK votes)

In the real world, Labour (and others) preferred for the DUP to have influence over the tories than for them to have influence over the tories.

[ThomThomDrum]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'm more interested in getting to a solution than I am shouting off against those I disagree with in the process. I accept their right to their input, whether in a deal a deal with the tories or not.

You are always "shouting" at folk you disagree with on here Nelly  

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As is Ireland.

Again, No Shit Sherlock   All sides are acting out of self interest. You repeating such continuously will not result in the solution you seek no more than folk on here giving out and venting what has happened in the past

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They might be (are) bigots, but their position here is nothing to do with bigotry.

 

They are bigots. No might about it. No need to pussy foot around that one.

Their current position is also 100% down to intolerance. They cant countenance being treated differently from the rest of the UK even-though they are fundamentally different in many ways, but especially because their pocket of the UK in the only place a land border exists and so very different to the rest.

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last week's 'crisis' that (supposedly) nearly brought down the Irish govt.

 

What has last week got to do with what you said? " your PM didn't have to go into coalition with a dodgy fuck"

Please, enlighten me.........

 

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Yep, like the DUP. And you.

 

no, but intelligent comment is always better than the same "tories fucked up in the past" and "May's shit". We know those things, those things are not new.

 

You will have to accept that on a forum you will get folk pissing and moaning about what has happened in the past just as much as those pissing and moaning have to accept we are where we are

 

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It wasn't wrong (using only foresight) for May to hold an election. She planned to sideline the tory brexit headbangers with a bigger majority, and polling said she'd do that easily. Things would be so much better if she'd done that.

But why only use foresight? We all know what she was trying to do and she couldnt. She fucked up. Failed.

Using only hindsight it was the wrong decision  

But assessing it overall it was failure. No other way to look at it. Things would be much better had she not failed

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May nearly got there the other day, and still might do. If Ireland actually cared for NI, it could help with that but all i'm hearing is self-interest, not (island of) Ireland's interest. Much like the DUP as it happens.

The Republic are of course acting out of self interest (as are everyone) but if they get what they want (no border) it would most likely be automatically good for the UK economically one would think, as it could be something that leads to a very soft Brexit and a good trading relationship with the EU. What that would do for staunch leavers I dont know however

[pink_triangle]

15 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Would the Tories do the same if Labour was in the same situation? 

SNP has a solution, to cancel Brexit. Its the Tories mess, are u seriously saying their opponents should help them out of it?

No I don't blame the SNP or the lib dems for making a political choice, but that political choice has the consequence of handing power to the DUP. The reality is we need a government and while tory propped up with DUP may not be most of our ideal government, it is the most stable based on the results and who were willing to work with who.

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Brexit is a fundementally terrible idea, and all the issues as to the Irish border and economy were told beforehand.

One of the main reasons brexit is a bad idea is because of the arse that is article 50.

Designed to be like that or not (I've no idea), it pretty-much locks countries in forever, by making it practically impossible to leave in an organised manner.

Yesterday, Ireland discovered they don't have tax sovereignty. In that instance they're probably happy (£13Bn to the good), but if it were the other way round they might be so pissed off they'd leave. They weren't happy to find out they didn't have banking sovereignty either. 

It's a personal choice for how much any citizen might want to give up their nation's sovereignty, and a true social justice programme couldn't happen within the EU. It's not necessarily a bad idea, it's just a view.

 

13 minutes ago, zahidf said:

If the Tories want to do it, its their idea, so up to them to sort it out.

Jez wants to do it too. It's why he voted with the brexiters for 4 decades.

 

[eFestivals]

34 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

All sides are acting out of self interest.

so why all the blame thrown towards the DUP for acting in the self-interest? As i've pointed out, whatever the DUP's other faults, it's not an unreasonable self-interest in this instance.

34 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

They are bigots. No might about it. No need to pussy foot around that one.

I used a phrase. I stuck the '(are)' in to show what i think.

34 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

What has last week got to do with what you said? " your PM didn't have to go into coalition with a dodgy fuck"

Please, enlighten me.........

wasn't your dep PM caught up in a corruption thingy, and stood down because of it?

Someone near the top stood down over something. Apols if I've got the reason wrong.

34 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

But why only use foresight? We all know what she was trying to do and she couldnt. She fucked up. Failed.

Using only hindsight it was the wrong decision  

But assessing it overall it was failure. No other way to look at it. Things would be much better had she not failed

Lots of people don't know what she was trying to do. According to at least one poster of this parish, she wanted a majority to have the hardest of brexits.

34 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

The Republic are of course acting out of self interest (as are everyone) but if they get what they want (no border) it would most likely be automatically good for the UK economically one would think, as it could be something that leads to a very soft Brexit and a good trading relationship with the EU. What that would do for staunch leavers I dont know however

Yup, I agree that what happens with Ireland is likely to define what the final deal might be - which is why I said the (failed) agreement was 2/3rds of the way there.

In fact, i read something since that suggested that the way it's been done (minus the DUP fuck-up) was specifically about tying down the EU to have to satisfy Ireland with what it agrees with the UK. That Ireland becomes the UK's inside agent by the UK and Ireland having a deal that the EU then has to fulfil.

And that the surprise of brexiters to May conceding to some EU regulation for whole-UK could be covered off by there being a deal for Ireland and it looking good for a decent deal with the EU.

It sounds unlikely, i know, because May agreeing to some EU regulation seems to have surprised everyone. The thing which suddenly makes it seem like it might have been a plan is that DD didn't seem at all surprised at May suddenly agreeing to some EU regulation.

Edited December 6, 2017 by eFestivals