Corbyn appearing on Pyramid!

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, uscore said:

I think, rightly or wrongly, it seems to be that when people look popular, other people start to believe they are popular.   I don't think 10 minutes at Glastonbury is going to change any outcomes, but I think it was a step in the right direction.

I defo agree about the first part, for how momentum grows.

But enthusiasm can be over-done, and have the opposite effect too. I'm aware with certainty that the cultish behaviour of some (think waterfalls) is turning some away from Labour. I'm not saying that's smart (or stupid, either), I'm merely saying it's happening with some.

[Mardy]

Just now, eFestivals said:

depends which bit of the private sector (tho what you've said right there isn't quite what was said). 

This bit right here is currently earning just 2/3rd's of what it was 17 years ago, so there's plenty of reasons why some might say the public sector isn't doing so badly.

Sure, I think overall, parts of the public sector are doing OK, if you take into account pensions etc (although a decline in job security, one of the traditional be efits of public sector, changes the balance a bit) but that's surely as it should be. I'm intensely worried about what's going to happen with pensions in 15-20 years time. So many people are going to be so fucked, be it private sector, self employed whatever. And it's not a competition, private vs public,  it's something which everybody, the whole of society needs to think about and share the burden of.

[frostypaw]

1 minute ago, Mardy said:

And it's not a competition, private vs public,  it's something which everybody, the whole of society needs to think about and share the burden of.

We have to look at who's got it worst and drag everyone down to that level - there's only one way those on top can maintain their lifestyle expectations!

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, frostypaw said:

This thread now:

Because it's not for you, because people will hold you to account for your words? 

Man the fuck up.

 

1 minute ago, frostypaw said:

At least the Tories weren't promising - to quote - "a bonfire of regulation" or that shitty attempt to blame everyone else for Grenfell would be in obscenely poor taste.

Did that "bonfire of regulation" directly lead to the deaths? Nope.

Nothing of the regs for cladding was changed. It's a fuck up, a huge huge fuck up, but it's fuck up by society in all sorts of different directions over decades and absolutely fuck all to do with any party or ideological leaning. It was a fuck-up around what the *real* dangers of certain types of cladding were, for decades.

You might as well be blaming the London Fire Brigade for only putting out a warning - and a weakish one - about cladding just a few weeks before the fire, when they could have done similar in 2007, 1997, and 1987 (if not earlier too).

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, Mardy said:

I'm intensely worried about what's going to happen with pensions in 15-20 years time. So many people are going to be so fucked, be it private sector, self employed whatever. And it's not a competition, private vs public,  it's something which everybody, the whole of society needs to think about and share the burden of.

If they share the burden of pension payments, that includes sharing the contributions in, too.

For example, plenty of people moan like fuck about how some have good private pensions, while they never mention the part where that person created that pension by denying themselves some things they might have otherwise had in their working years.

Having better pensions requires having better pension contributions, AND recognising the pension burden onto society (and how it's growing due to oldies living longer).

When you have the likes of Corbyn saying that in fact we can put less into pensions (as said in the manifesto, via the delay in pension age rises) it's not only tories who are a big risk to future pension affordability.

Edited June 28, 2017 by eFestivals

[waterfalls21234]

33 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

Public sector pay rise ?? try working in the private sector matey... not a pay rise for years 

I do work in the private sector mate, im a factory worker, working class, you know one of those corbyn isnt meant to be reaching? (lol)  

Working in the private sector myself though doesnt mean I begrudge people who do far more important work in many cases then I do getting a justified pay rise for it! esp when it comes to nhs staff, emergency services personnel etc etc

esp when theresa may goes right up to their fucking faces during election campaigning and tells them theres no more money to reward them better for the lifesaving work they do and then fucking throws billions at a party of bigots just to stay in power!.....but hey thats just me!

[frostypaw]

Edit> I hate this editor. Quote things all over the place dunno how to make it behave sadly.

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Because it's not for you, because people will hold you to account for your words? 

Man the fuck up.

[/quote]

LOL - you're kidding right?

This is some of the most juvenile political debating I've seen outside of facebook, that's why I posted that.

Quote

Did that "bonfire of regulation" directly lead to the deaths? Nope.

Nothing of the regs for cladding was changed. It's a fuck up, a huge huge fuck up, but it's fuck up by society in all sorts of different directions over decades and absolutely fuck all to do with any party or ideological leaning. It was a fuck-up around what the *real* dangers of certain types of cladding were, for decades.

I didn't say it did directly lead to it - so in this "super adulty" discussion why are you making stuff up?

I'm guessing because it's not that super adulty.

The dangers of that cladding were well known about and reported several times but regulatory changes were held up by our current government's philosophy of not regulating, one in one out wasn't it?

Anyhow, that has pretty much summed up exactly why I'm not really taking part in this.

Edited June 28, 2017 by frostypaw

[eFestivals]

Just now, frostypaw said:

LOL - you're kidding right? 

you're the guy who was making 100% claims about my posts yesterday.

I challenged you about it. You ran away.

As I said, man the fuck up.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, frostypaw said:

The dangers of that cladding were well known about and reported several times but regulatory changes were held up by our current government's philosophy of not regulating, one in one out wasn't it?

Nope, not that would have dealt with cladding to save Grenfell.

That aside, nothing is known now about the cladding that wasn't known in 1986 ... but it'as all about the tories, right now? That's spinning a convenient line, not addressing how it came to happen.

Edited June 28, 2017 by eFestivals

[frostypaw]

Just now, eFestivals said:

you're the guy who was making 100% claims about my posts yesterday.

I challenged you about it. You ran away.

As I said, man the fuck up.

I didn't run away Neil - I pointed out some of it was bullshit, and some of it was pretty damn juvenile.

I really don't need to man up - I'm not busy flexing my muscles and acting the big boy. Now I'm definitely going as that's just getting more pathetic, unpleasant , sweary and pointless.

 

OK sure, nobody anywhere in the world had any idea that cladding was bad, and no investigations or reports or anything got held up. Whatever you fancy believing. Don't care - too unpleasant to discuss it with you.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, frostypaw said:

I didn't run away Neil - I pointed out some of it was bullshit, and some of it was pretty damn juvenile.

The only bullshit was yours, in claiming I'd said Corbyn's campaign was a (I think the word you used was) 'clusterfuck'. I'd said the exact opposite, and complemented his success. 

The juvenile is you continuing to not accept your wrong.

I'll call you out over that. I might even be juvenile about it. None of which had to happen without your own bullshit as an attempt to demonise me.

 

Quote

OK sure, nobody anywhere in the world had any idea that cladding was bad, and no investigations or reports or anything got held up. Whatever you fancy believing. Don't care - too unpleasant to discuss it with you.

Lots of places in the world had ideas that the cladding was bad - for decades and decades and decades.

Which doesn't make it all about the tories just last year, as you want to make it.

Edited June 28, 2017 by eFestivals

[frostypaw]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

your own bullshit as an attempt to demonise me

Oh Neil, nobody is trying to demonise you. I'm just saying you're extremely aggressive and unpleasant to discuss this kind of topic with as you're so extraordinarily forceful about it.

I didn't say it was all about the tories just last year anywhere mate, sorry. That's the sort of thing I mean. Back off the trigger a bit.

[waterfalls21234]

4 minutes ago, frostypaw said:

Oh Neil, nobody is trying to demonise you. I'm just saying you're extremely aggressive and unpleasant to discuss this kind of topic with as you're so extraordinarily forceful about it.

I didn't say it was all about the tories just last year anywhere mate, sorry. That's the sort of thing I mean. Back off the trigger a bit.

Oh look efestivals caught making up statements from people again....but no its all in our heads isnt it mate, you dont do that do you? everyones a liar but you......lol

[eFestivals]

Just now, frostypaw said:

I didn't say it was all about the tories just last year anywhere mate

the earliest opportunity the tories had to change anything with the cladding regs was last year, as the conclusions from a previous tower block fire (in 2009)  got to Parliament.

(and had they made those changes to the regs last year it would have made not a jot of difference to Grenfell as there was no retro-fit element to the regs proposal)

[eFestivals]

Just now, waterfalls21234 said:

Oh look efestivals caught making up statements from people again....but no its all in our heads isnt it mate, you dont do that do you? everyones a liar but you......lol

No, it's efestivals referencing the facts of the possible regs changes by the tories that haven't yet happened.

Where last year was the FIRST opportunity for them to deal with them via the normal processes.

So I'm merely referencing the things you reject. Facts. 

Meanwhile, the cladding regs could have also been changed at any point over many decades. It's fuck all to do with tories and everything to do with how the UK's regulatory systems for building regs work.

[DeanoL]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

oh, i don't disagree. I wasn't expecting anything different at Glastonbury, but I'd very much like something of greater real substance somewhen. Before he gets elected would be better, as he might then actually get elected.

You think by promising less he's more likely to get elected?

20 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Nope, not that would have dealt with cladding to save Grenfell.

That aside, nothing is known now about the cladding that wasn't known in 1986 ... but it'as all about the tories, right now? That's spinning a convenient line, not addressing how it came to happen.

Because outside of a few folk it's not about blame in the specific sense. I don't care if the previous Labour government were to blame, they're very different to the current one.

But what's obvious to pretty much anyone is that to stop stuff like this happening in the future, we're better off supporting the party in favour of more funding to the fire service and more regulation on landlords, rather than the party supporting cutting that funding and loosening regulations. Same with the terror attacks: one party wants to increase police funding, one wants to cut it.

Now sure, in any of these specific circumstances, we can argue back and forth all day what specific actions that were or were not taken could or could not have prevented these tragedies. And we should to get a greater understanding of how to stop anything like those happening again. But the next terror attack won't be outside a gig or on a bridge, and the next big accident won't be a tower block catching light. It'll be something else we're neglecting. 

And that's why, in the light of these tragedies, people have ralied behind the party that have said "Let's stop neglecting stuff. And people."

You're right - the detail isn't there. Maybe it never will be. Maybe Corbyn will get into office and not be able to do any of what he wants to. But at least for the first time since I've been able to vote there's someone with support behind them who is at least saying that they'll give it a go.

[Lad]

1 hour ago, waterfalls212434 said:

The figures I speak of come from the tory partys own example of how much labours policies would cost 

anyway dont try and change the subject, where has this 1.5 bn come from? we have had years of the tory party telling us the country is broke, so where has the money come from?

I tell you what, remember when theresa may told that nurse she met during the election campaign to her face that there was `no more money` for any kind of public sector payrise what so ever.

I wonder how that same nurse felt waking up and seeing the tories had found 1.5 billion to throw at the dup? 

This guy elliot gets it Look at the tory idiot squirm and try and change the subject again....try and justify that? you cant! it is unjustifiable! 
 

 

Isn't that the knobhead who was making himself try and look he knew all about Liverpool?It's seems to be clueless cranks often do.

 

Deserves a good webbing on the strength of his cap alone.

[babyblade41]

I'm not sure JC's appearance at Glastonbury would have done a lot of good...again I say preaching to the converted is not gaining anymore votes as those votes were already in the bag 

Those on the fence probably weren't too impressed with someone who just wanted to build up their ego .

Listening to PMQ's on the radio and it is so clear that he is making the Grenfell tragedy a point scoring issue... thankfully he got knocked down fairly easily ... if he continues to do this he could start having the reverse effect.. even some of the families effected have said as much especially with his idea of seizing homes of the rich in the area 

I'm sorry but his momentum is slowing down considerably in general population from what I'm hearing... just today at the feed shop a labour supporter is turning off as he felt he needs to start discussing politics not playing happy clappy at festivals... another point is his age... if he couldn't gain power when he was at his peak, how is he going to manage to keep going for another 5 years and if he did win would he be able to carry on for another 5 after that 

[babyblade41]

just one more thing as it's been hectic since I got home but  I will say this, If JC came to a Q & A session where I live which has been a safe tory seat for many years... (I have only lived here for 18 months ) then I would attend for sure.. I would have a list of questions I would like to ask and would respect his replies... the problem is for a tory like me he appears to just be very visible where his followers are en masse..

I'm not your rich toff tory, I've been hard working all my life like many others.. I had to go without so much not only to provide a roof and food over my head but also to budget for my old age .

I struggle financially like many others but know through careful planning I won't have to rely totally on the state pension ... to do that I have sacrificed an awful lot , supplying my own pension pot and income ...sometimes I wonder if the sacrifice was too much but then I wouldn't really have it any other way 

In life there are those that have and those that have not, sometimes it isn't fair but without those who have there would be a lot more have nots , I take my hat off to all those entrepreneurs who make it possible to make jobs available for others and wish them all the success 

[uscore]

11 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

I'm not sure JC's appearance at Glastonbury would have done a lot of good...again I say preaching to the converted is not gaining anymore votes as those votes were already in the bag 

 

You've previously stated stated that all the people around you who saw it didn't like him, and were making fun of him. Now, to make a different point, you say he was only preaching to the converted!

I think it was a very sensible place to talk. A lot of exposure, not just at the festival, but it made national TV too.  Some of it good, some of it bad, but that's better than not being seen at all.  If he is to stand a chance he has to take that risk, get his message out and let people decide.

 

I'm not convinced he'll win the next election, but I'm also fairly sure that your assertion that his "momentum is slowing down considerably in general population" is your wishful thinking or a result of your own echo chamber.  I'm not claiming that he's surfing some amazing wave of populism, but his stock is still as high as it's ever been right now, I reckon.

[uscore]

2 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

 

I'm not your rich toff tory, I've been hard working all my life like many others.. I had to go without so much not only to provide a roof and food over my head but also to budget for my old age .

I struggle financially like many others but know through careful planning I won't have to rely totally on the state pension ... to do that I have sacrificed an awful lot , supplying my own pension pot and income ...sometimes I wonder if the sacrifice was too much but then I wouldn't really have it any other way 

In life there are those that have and those that have not, sometimes it isn't fair but without those who have there would be a lot more have nots , I take my hat off to all those entrepreneurs who make it possible to make jobs available for others and wish them all the success 

There's a lot of that I don't disagree with. Just because I'm a lefty doesn't mean I don't believe hard work and sacrifice shouldn't be rewarded, it's a fallacy to pretend that's what socialism is about. It's entirely about getting the reward for your hard work.  I just disagree that a Tory government actually delivers that opportunity to the majority.  I think they do the opposite, and actually close doors to most people.

[babyblade41]

9 minutes ago, uscore said:

You've previously stated stated that all the people around you who saw it didn't like him, and were making fun of him. Now, to make a different point, you say he was only preaching to the converted!

 

 those that weren't happy were in the minority  , but I wasn't too convinced either of a few who were going with the flow just because and may not be such pro Corbyns on the quiet  

[frostypaw]

7 minutes ago, uscore said:

I think they do the opposite, and actually close doors to most people.

This is the bit that drives me the most nuts - their presumption of superiority and their ability to see it in others when it often comes down to a nice suit, a good line in bullshit and best of all the right schooling and contacts. That's just utter nonsense and mostly an excuse for some very shallow and simplistic 'thinking'/shortcutting to try and simplify it all down because in the end they weren't that smart and superior to start with so they needed something simple to hang onto and pretend they were all that.

Watching the way Corbyn was attacked for his appearance was, quite aside from any support I might give him, an utterly pitiful moment for UK politics.

[Ommadawn]

52 minutes ago, frostypaw said:

Watching the way Corbyn was attacked for his appearance was, quite aside from any support I might give him, an utterly pitiful moment for UK politics.

He was quick to smarten himself up though.

[eFestivals]

2 hours ago, DeanoL said:

You think by promising less he's more likely to get elected?

I want an honest offering and not a bullshit one that will only disappoint people.

How dreadful of me, eh? It must be because i hate Corbyn.