What level of security would you accept?

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, waterfalls212434 said:

even the ira werent crazy enough to blow themselves up for the cause......these people literally have no limits, 

that's true - and is probably why there's fewer bombings now than then, because there's not actually that many people who are prepared to have those no-limits. The incidents are terrible, but the number of them is very low.

And while the numbers of deaths in incidents like yesterday is higher than many IRA bombings, incidents like yesterday actually show how difficult it is to kill or injure a large number of people when they're trying their hardest to get as many as possible (which was probably rarely the case with IRA bombings). There were 21,000 there, and just a tiny tiny proportion were caught directly by the blast. 

[Flysheet]

1 minute ago, Pink_Tequila said:

I didn't say I didn't support it. I said we had a right to question it and people have a right not to agree with it. In the current situation I agree with having troops on the streets. What view of mine is it you don't agree with?

Your use of the word presumptuous 

 

I stated a fact about the circumstances of the implementation of Temperer.

 

By all means, question it. Happy to back you. I question lots of things from our politicians etc.

[waterfalls212434]

16 minutes ago, Flysheet said:

I don't agree with your view but I'll defend your right to say it, same as the lads and lasses in the security forces keeping us all as safe as they can, with the limited resources they have and under the political constraints of a modern pluralist democracy. I'm ex-forces and have never unsworn my oath. I also despise our foreign policy at times.

I had family in the arena on Monday and my daughter was in the same area of Paris the night of Bataclan and the restaurant shootings.

Its very easy to shut the stable door, I'd rather stop the horse before it bolts. In truth, I'd actually like to think we weren't actually giving the horse a stable to feed itself up before it comes out. If a few folk are uncomfortable by seeing our troops on the street, so be it if it means that I don't have to listen to grieving parents on the news. 

If I'm in the queue at the football or a gig, and some lunatic in a suicide vest runs up but is taken out by a squaddie or a copper before he kills us all, I'm buying that lad a beer.

As Sadiq Khan said, we've got to get used to living with terrorism.

Stable, horse, door...

This isn't going away.

 

What should have happened is we should have had the police numbers to the point where we didnt `have` to put troops on the streets, I would argue that police are arguably better trained in dealing with counter terror situations anyway especially armed police units in the specialist counterterror units (soldiers are trained for a warzone not protecting civilians in a civilian situation in most cases)  and seeing them on the streets doesnt put the public even more on edge like seeing armed forces will do (like it or not that is the truth, seeing solders on the streets does not calm people!) but thats not an option because those police forces and those counter terror units were heavily cut back over the last 5-6 years.......who is to blame for that? wonder who was home secretary during that time-frame?  Theresa may is probably hoping many people forget that little fact. That is not politicising anything before I get accused of it but when its gotten to the point where we dont have enough trained armed police to cover incidents like this so we have to call in the bloody armed forces to cover them then someone should have to answer for it because that to be honest is bloody ridiculous. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by waterfalls212434

[Pink_Tequila]

17 minutes ago, Flysheet said:

Your use of the word presumptuous 

 

I stated a fact about the circumstances of the implementation of Temperer.

 

By all means, question it. Happy to back you. I question lots of things from our politicians etc.

Ok. My use of the word presumptuous was in relation to you saying that anyone involved in yesterday's events would support the extra moves.

[stopwn1981]

Previously we've only been a critical a few days at a time. Hopefully they bust this cell, if it is one, quickly like after Paris.

[Copperface]

20 minutes ago, stopwn1981 said:

Previously we've only been a critical a few days at a time. Hopefully they bust this cell, if it is one, quickly like after Paris.

And then it'll be back to the normal denigration of public services for political ends, and continual undermining of powers that assist in preventing the movement of such extremists by sham extremist cover groups such as this.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/14/campaign-group-to-challenge-uk-over-surrender-of-passwords-at-border-control

Also, they cannot afford to remain at Critical for more than a week or two if it can be helped- costs an absolute fortune.

[Smeble]

2 hours ago, Padgey said:

Is it possible we could see our armed forces on the gates at Glastonbury?  It's a shame it's come to that but I think it's quite possible.

The army on the gates of a festival with strong links to CND? Not sure the festival would want that, it does go against the vibe of the festival

[Smeble]

Using the army on the streets is far cheaper than more plod, they are paid less and don't get overtime.

 

[Penrhos]

The problem is complex and the only thing is to do what you'd normally do but be more observant - otherwise they have won.

To stop these events the security forces have to be lucky every time - to kill people a terrorist only needs to be lucky once.

 

What worries me more is the level of civil liberties we have now is already lower than during the war and they will use this as an excuse to turn the surveillance screws, your civil liberties will be trodden on and before you know it we'll be in a police state (to keep us safe).

What I think will happen is there'll be more sniffer dogs at bus/train stations and ANPR cameras on the roads to any festival - all this will do is catch people with drugs (under the guise of sniffing for explosives) perversely the longer queues to get through security checks makes the queues themselves a target.

 

As Glastonbury isn't such a soft target as the entry/exit gates of an arena in a large town then people travelling there would be the softer target (a bomb on a bus/train would be effective for headlines).

I'll be going to all the gigs/festivals I can this year and if I get blown up then so what - I'll still be doing what I love and no terrorist is going to stop me (Statistically I'm more likely to get killed driving there). 

[waterfalls212434]

Went to iron maiden at the motorpoint aeena in cardiff last night have to say it wasnt as heavy as I thourght....I was waved through the security metal hand scanner wand thingy check so their still definitly not checking everybody. Guys in front of me got scanned then i was waved through. Didnt see any armed police or troops at the venue. Couple of armed police at the train station but that was about it.....and randomly 2 armed police at a tiny rural part time station on the way to bristol temple meads on the way up whixh i thourght was a bit random.

[CaledonianGonzo]

5 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Went to iron maiden at the motorpoint aeena in cardiff last night have to say it wasnt as heavy as I thourght....

People have been saying that about Iron Maiden for years.

[babyblade41]

10 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Went to iron maiden at the motorpoint aeena in cardiff last night have to say it wasnt as heavy as I thourght....I was waved through the security metal hand scanner wand thingy check so their still definitly not checking everybody. Guys in front of me got scanned then i was waved through. Didnt see any armed police or troops at the venue. Couple of armed police at the train station but that was about it.....and randomly 2 armed police at a tiny rural part time station on the way to bristol temple meads on the way up whixh i thourght was a bit random.

What was it like ? I had a ticket for last Sunday in Birmingham but couldn't go at the last minute.    I'm not a fan of indoor arenas and only ever saw them outside .   Please tell me it wasn't as good as usual !!! Gutted that I couldn't go....oh and did they do Hallowed ? my altimeter fave 

[Flysheet]

On 24/05/2017 at 9:35 AM, waterfalls212434 said:

What should have happened is we should have had the police numbers to the point where we didnt `have` to put troops on the streets, I would argue that police are arguably better trained in dealing with counter terror situations anyway especially armed police units in the specialist counterterror units (soldiers are trained for a warzone not protecting civilians in a civilian situation in most cases)  and seeing them on the streets doesnt put the public even more on edge like seeing armed forces will do (like it or not that is the truth, seeing solders on the streets does not calm people!) but thats not an option because those police forces and those counter terror units were heavily cut back over the last 5-6 years.......who is to blame for that? wonder who was home secretary during that time-frame?  Theresa may is probably hoping many people forget that little fact. That is not politicising anything before I get accused of it but when its gotten to the point where we dont have enough trained armed police to cover incidents like this so we have to call in the bloody armed forces to cover them then someone should have to answer for it because that to be honest is bloody ridiculous. 

With you all the way

[eFestivals]

On 5/24/2017 at 9:35 AM, waterfalls212434 said:

What should have happened is we should have had the police numbers to the point where we didnt `have` to put troops on the streets

So you think there should be more-than-enough police to cover every and all rare instances such as this, without any regard to whether they're needed for the rest of the time?

Just a thought, but wouldn't you rather have more resources put towards the NHS where those resources would actually have use all of the time, than be allocating resources to do nothing at all?

Any resource that's moved from one thing to another - which is what you're suggesting with more old bill - is the loss of the resource they've been moved from. Care to say what society should give up to have those extra and unneeded-most-of-the-time coppers?

[I am Jon]

Radio 1 Big Weekend has announced they are stepping up security with "airport-style security measures in place".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-40026296

Hopefully things will have calmed down by Glastonbury. Don't want to see such strict security measures at Glastonbury and realistically not sure how it could even work. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by I am Jon

[billum]

5 minutes ago, I am Jon said:

Don't want to see such strict security measures at Glastonbury and realistically not sure how it could even work. 

I presume they'll just check people coming in at the gates, maybe with sniffer dogs (do dogs specialise in 'explosive' sniffing vs. 'other substance' sniffing?) and maybe metal detectors at the entrances. Not the worst thing that could happen but a shame all the same

[stopwn1981]

6 minutes ago, billum said:

I presume they'll just check people coming in at the gates, maybe with sniffer dogs (do dogs specialise in 'explosive' sniffing vs. 'other substance' sniffing?) and maybe metal detectors at the entrances. Not the worst thing that could happen but a shame all the same

Equaling longer queues, which as others have said make them a target instead.

[42hamlet]

6 minutes ago, billum said:

I presume they'll just check people coming in at the gates, maybe with sniffer dogs (do dogs specialise in 'explosive' sniffing vs. 'other substance' sniffing?) and maybe metal detectors at the entrances. Not the worst thing that could happen but a shame all the same

Dogs trained for explosive sniffing wouldn't be able to sniff out 'other substances' and vice versa usually

Also, very often "sniffer" dogs you see around are anything but and there for show. Often outside festivals you'll get "sniffer" dogs that are there primarily to convince punters to go and use the amnesty bins

 

[billum]

Just now, 42hamlet said:

Often outside festivals you'll get "sniffer" dogs that are there primarily to convince punters to go and use the amnesty bins

yeah some of those dogs can put on a pretty convincing argument, don't get talking to them if you can avoid it 

[Penrhos]

The suicide bomber blew himself up outside the security perimeter (he hadn't gone into the gig). So you have a catch-22 situation.

If you create a long queue trying to get through the security gates then the queue becomes the target and as there's no security on the way out the people exiting will always be a target.

All that will happen is more innocent people will get criminal records for possessing drugs and the police will hail it as a big success..

 

If they are going to target Glasto ticket holders it will be one of the buses, trains or stations that'll be targeted as that is the softest target.. 

 

[42hamlet]

Just now, billum said:

yeah some of those dogs can put on a pretty convincing argument, don't get talking to them if you can avoid it 

It's those puppy dog eyes, how could you say no?!

[Penrhos]

Metal detectors and airport style security - that'd work well at Glasto - NOT.

Scan my wheelbarrow full of beer and my rucksack and tent etc... * 100,000 isn't going to be practicable. 

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, 42hamlet said:

Dogs trained for explosive sniffing wouldn't be able to sniff out 'other substances' and vice versa usually

Also, very often "sniffer" dogs you see around are anything but and there for show. Often outside festivals you'll get "sniffer" dogs that are there primarily to convince punters to go and use the amnesty bins

 

and sniffer dogs only have a short working time. They'd need to re-site Battersea dogs home to have enough dogs.

[Penrhos]

I'm pretty sure the nose on the dog I walked past at "V" was broken.. As I didn't get stopped.

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

Yeah sniffer dogs are useful for about 15 minutes at a time, they need regular rest in between.