Explosion at the M.E.N

[Quark]

22 minutes ago, Lucy92 said:

This. We are dealing with evil evil people who aren't afraid of death. Its a horrendous enemy 

The worst part (I suspect) is that the truly evil people are afraid of death. What they're not afraid of is sending others to their deaths. The really evil ones are the ones running the training camps, spreading the message, preaching hate. They're not the ones rushing to blow themselves up, they're the ones telling others how amazing they would be if they did it. Insidious, manipulative, and above all removed.

[Flysheet]

1 hour ago, Dave_c said:

Honestly don't know but there is a recurring theme of these people already being known to the police. There must be something more that can be done.

What the authorities are trying to do is get them away for a long time, so they need a list of stuff or a big act. 

There are peeps away for 30-40 who've never been heard of by the public 

[Mr.Tease]

19 minutes ago, Flysheet said:

What the authorities are trying to do is get them away for a long time, so they need a list of stuff or a big act. 

There are peeps away for 30-40 who've never been heard of by the public 

Also keeping them out while under surveillance allows them to gather more Intel and suspects as they then get to see who they are networking with and eventually get the higher up figures. 

putting them in jail too soon on minor charges can mean they just end up mingling in a medium prison where they might recruit others.

I don't envy the intelligence chiefs jobs- too hasty and they might blow chances of a conviction, too late and people die. 

[zico martin]

I see a justgiving page has been set up for the families effected and over a million has been raised. Nice but I'm not really sure what that achieves. Is it just me that wonders whether it's more about making people not affected feel better about themselves than helping the families?

[Quark]

4 minutes ago, zico martin said:

I see a justgiving page has been set up for the families effected and over a million has been raised. Nice but I'm not really sure what that achieves. Is it just me that wonders whether it's more about making people not affected feel better about themselves than helping the families?

It's an interesting question. I think there is an area of psychology that looks at the "reward" aspect of performing good deeds. I think sometimes people just don't know what they can do to help, so justgiving is a way of at least being involved in some kind of constructive input.

The one that got me this morning was the news piece about the homeless guy, Steve Jones, who had been helping the kids caught up in it. Glorious man. But the "feelgood" part of the story was how he's now not homeless because a millionaire has found somewhere for him to stay. From the BBC:

Dave said “someone who does something as selfless as Steve did, they deserve to be helped.”

Where was he when Steve needed help before? How fortunate that Steve is now deemed to be deserving of his help.

Sorry, something about this just stuck in my throat this morning.

[Odessa]

The homeless problem here is a disgrace. Hats off to Steve, what he did was a remarkable. He says anyone would have done it, but he heard a huge explosion and went towards it rather than away. I don't think most people would have done that.

Does he deserve help getting back on his feet? Yes, of course he does. Especially after what he's been through on Monday night, he'll be traumatised. But so do all the other homeless people in Manchester. I took a walk to the arena last night which is a mile and a half from me and easily walked past 20+ homeless people. It's insane. They shouldn't need to prove their worth to us to be given a proper place in society.

But hey, spend however many hundreds of millions of pounds renovating Buckingham Palace. That's the priority.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Odessa

[amfy]

1 hour ago, Quark said:

The worst part (I suspect) is that the truly evil people are afraid of death. What they're not afraid of is sending others to their deaths. The really evil ones are the ones running the training camps, spreading the message, preaching hate. They're not the ones rushing to blow themselves up, they're the ones telling others how amazing they would be if they did it. Insidious, manipulative, and above all removed.

I was appalled a couple of years ago when I heard that the inventor of suicide bombing had died. I always imagined that someone invented suicide bombing by doing it, but apparently there was someone who was an evil enough bastard to invent it for other people to do.

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

56 minutes ago, Quark said:

It's an interesting question. I think there is an area of psychology that looks at the "reward" aspect of performing good deeds. I think sometimes people just don't know what they can do to help, so justgiving is a way of at least being involved in some kind of constructive input.

The one that got me this morning was the news piece about the homeless guy, Steve Jones, who had been helping the kids caught up in it. Glorious man. But the "feelgood" part of the story was how he's now not homeless because a millionaire has found somewhere for him to stay. From the BBC:

Dave said “someone who does something as selfless as Steve did, they deserve to be helped.”

Where was he when Steve needed help before? How fortunate that Steve is now deemed to be deserving of his help.

Sorry, something about this just stuck in my throat this morning.

I fully get what you're saying here, but I wouldn't get annoyed. This millionaire may be regularly carry out philanthropic deeds day in day out for all we know, but he can't be expected to have known about this homeless man until he heard about him on the news and he has acted accordingly.

[Odessa]

2 minutes ago, Deaf Nobby Burton said:

I fully get what you're saying here, but I wouldn't get annoyed. This millionaire may be regularly carry out philanthropic deeds day in day out for all we know, but he can't be expected to have known about this homeless man until he heard about him on the news and he has acted accordingly.

Yeah the anger shouldn't be directed at him. He's defo a good guy in this. But the overall point that it's wrong that it's taken this for a homeless guy to get a break is spot on.

[Sasperella]

1 hour ago, Quark said:

The worst part (I suspect) is that the truly evil people are afraid of death. What they're not afraid of is sending others to their deaths. The really evil ones are the ones running the training camps, spreading the message, preaching hate. They're not the ones rushing to blow themselves up, they're the ones telling others how amazing they would be if they did it. Insidious, manipulative, and above all removed.

 

1 hour ago, Quark said:

 

Where was he when Steve needed help before? How fortunate that Steve is now deemed to be deserving of his help.

Sorry, something about this just stuck in my throat this morning.

Totally agree on both of this points Quark....just felt a bit weird putting a heart against them, given the context, but summed up pretty much how I feel but don't have the words to say

[Homer]

A Guy Called Gerard getting slaughtered on Facebook for asking what is happening in Manchester the other day. Not quite sure why - looks like a lot of keyboard warriors lapping up an opportunity to be offended/offensive.

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155400480138713&id=51605353712

[Simpo]

As regards homelessness in Manchester, I am thankful that the new mayor Andy Burnham has made it a priority to help those on the streets. I also see Dantastic has extended his charity bins to add 250 painted with bees, which you can have your name put on for £20. The money will go towards Forever Manchester, a fund which aims to help rough sleepers in Manchester get off the streets. https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/GlastonburyLovesManchester

 

On the topic of troubling thoughts in the wake of Monday's events, may I recommend meditation. Take some time to be quiet, breathe deeply, and then after clearing your mind, think about all the positive people around you that you know, and also those you don't know who strive to make the world a better place. Also, as much as it hurts, time is a healer of mental anguish.

May we all see peaceful times.

[Dave_c]

20 minutes ago, Homer said:

A Guy Called Gerard getting slaughtered on Facebook for asking what is happening in Manchester the other day. Not quite sure why - looks like a lot of keyboard warriors lapping up an opportunity to be offended/offensive.

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155400480138713&id=51605353712

He could have just looked at the news in the time he posted that comment. Pretty dumb move if you ask me.

[Flysheet]

1 hour ago, zico martin said:

I see a justgiving page has been set up for the families effected and over a million has been raised. Nice but I'm not really sure what that achieves. Is it just me that wonders whether it's more about making people not affected feel better about themselves than helping the families?

This

Run out of ups matey

[Homer]

5 minutes ago, Dave_c said:

He could have just looked at the news in the time he posted that comment. Pretty dumb move if you ask me.

Dumb maybe but not sure it makes him the @rsehole he is being portrayed as.

[Larraht]

I have seen so many posts on another Glastonbury forum today about whether the festival is at risk or whether it is safe to go. Naturally, everyone is anxious at the moment - a fire alarm went off in my childs school today and parents were messaging the school facebook page about whether it was linked to Manchester or terrorism. 

I guess the only thing to do is to (and I hate the over use of this phrase) keep calm and carry on.

In addition to this, lets be extra kind to one another. In our communites and at the festival. Think of little things which will make people smile and help others to find some joy at the moment. Heaven knows we all need a bit of light right now.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Larraht
Typo

[zico martin]

5 minutes ago, Flysheet said:

This

Run out of ups matey

Thanks mate, I do question my cynicism sometimes so it's nice to know it's not just me.

[Dave_c]

3 hours ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

Hello Dave_c

I know where you are coming from, but our society as it is, will be more fucked if we go down the road of internment. We would then be no better than tin pot military junta controlled countries. This is my first post on this subject and I'm as angry at what's happened as the next person, but just couldn't agree to the idea of throwing everybody in jail for the merest hint of extremist behaviour. If we go down that path, we'll end up with a state like the Stasi controlled East Germany used to be. I don't think those who laid down their own lives to fight fascism in both world wars would thank us for that. We'd be pissing on their graves if we did. I don't know what the solution is, but do know that democracy has to be maintained within that solution.

Hi Yog!

i don't disagree with your points, but surely intelligence can differentiate between the real extremists and some who take it as a fad for a while. I have very little interest or knowledge of what they do with intelligence but surely something more can be done to prevent this type of attack. 

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

28 minutes ago, Simpo said:

 Also, as much as it hurts, time is a healer of mental anguish.

I know what you are saying and trying to do, and it's commendable. The thing is that every so often an event happens somewhere in the country, that affects us and will always affect us. We put aside our differences and, perhaps, our own chauvinism, and feel, deeply, for those affected. It doesn't really go away with time. This despicable event in Manchester will be the same. The only good thing that can be said of this event, is that it has chipped off a little block off the artificial regional barrier that we are sometimes guilty of putting up. We really are one united nation in grief, and determination not to give in. 

[clarkete]

3 hours ago, fatyeti24 said:

it's a natural reaction in the aftermath of this kind of thing, but the authorities in this country already have some of the the world's most far reaching (some would say too far reaching) laws to monitor people.  they apparently stop many acts way before they come to fruition, and we never hear about it.  you cannot stop every one though, sadly.  and there's always got be a boundary between peoples' liberties and the powers of the state.  in recent times this boundary has been pushed further and further in the name of fighting terrorism.

If anyone has seen the documentary about Snowden, citizenfour, he talks about how one of the things that he was shocked by was this particular tool which is in use in the UK and was fully permitted within our laws.  At that time the things he talked about being done in the states by the authorities were quite often against the law.  For our monitoring laws I think they've just been talking about extending them further (forcing whatsapp etc to hand over decryption keys)?

Anyway, the point is that even if a person had been looked at previously and either not acted on, or dismissed as not a current threat, they would be able to use tools such as this to retrospectively search through email, FB, internet history, etc.  They could then do similar for known associates, even if they've never been of interest, committed a crime, whatever.  In this case that had to be expurgited do to the name being leaked out via the US more rapidly, where the UK said they wanted 36 hours to investigate first.

In calm times, scary big brother stuff, of course times like now many people will be a lot more sympathetic to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora

[Waapster]

2 minutes ago, Dave_c said:

Hi Yog!

i don't disagree with your points, but surely intelligence can differentiate between the real extremists and some who take it as a fad for a while. I have very little interest or knowledge of what they do with intelligence but surely something more can be done to prevent this type of attack. 

I have a little (really tiny) overlap with the intel world (not a spook though). Loads is going on, remember this if you object at some time to things like Government snooping on public internet use or emails - you can't ask the Government to do more and to do less at the same time. The surveillance effort is impressive and, I believe, plots are stopped every year. Sadly there will probably always be some that get through unless we accept really intrusive limits on our freedom and privacy.

In terms of locking up suspects - the rule of law, fairness, justice and freedom are the things that make us better than these murderous animals.

[Simpo]

4 minutes ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

I know what you are saying and trying to do, and it's commendable. The thing is that every so often an event happens somewhere in the country, that affects us and will always affect us. We put aside our differences and, perhaps, our own chauvinism, and feel, deeply, for those affected. It doesn't really go away with time. This despicable event in Manchester will be the same. The only good thing that can be said of this event, is that it has chipped off a little block off the artificial regional barrier that we are sometimes guilty of putting up. We really are one united nation in grief, and determination not to give in. 

Good words Yog.

[Flysheet]

4 minutes ago, zico martin said:

Thanks mate, I do question my cynicism sometimes so it's nice to know it's not just me.

A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist.

Paying "tribute" is too fucking easy with social media. Change your profile pic, overlay it with the latest emoticon etc. Start a petition or fund. Have a vigil - although this was very welcome last night in Mcr and I think was done very well.

Folk like to be seen doing the right thing and hoping their mates give it a thumbs up 

There's a term for it now, Virtue Signalling, changes nothing and won't stop whatever is going to happen from happening. 

[fowls]

I'm exasperated by the cynicism that always creeps into the internet.  There are great communities all over the internet sharing with openness, and then someone has to show up with "but when will people realise facebook filters are empty gestures?" or "why does everyone suddenly care about X now?" as a matter of profundity.  Every. Damn. Time.

 

The rest though has been fucking fantastic.  Yesterday with the vigil and Broken Social Scene was such a touching evening.  I'm not at all a sentimental person, but there was such an atmosphere of community.  I'm sure that will fade over the next week or two, but hopefully something can carry on.

 

 

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

17 minutes ago, Dave_c said:

Hi Yog!

i don't disagree with your points, but surely intelligence can differentiate between the real extremists and some who take it as a fad for a while. I have very little interest or knowledge of what they do with intelligence but surely something more can be done to prevent this type of attack. 

Hello Dave,

I think Waapster has answered for me. I have no doubt that the people in the intelligence world are working themselves in to the ground on our behalf. If they lack anything, it will be, as usual, resources to do the job more effectively.