Don't vote Tory

[Junglist1981]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

He can tell you all sorts of things to wise you up to some facts. I could too, tho i suspect you wouldn't accept them.

Enlighten me.

 

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Perhaps. Though there's something to be said for the fact that someone who had an ounce of a plan in place would have a plan for 2020, not the snap election that's been called. (Although had Corbyn not been in place, there would likely be no snap election in the first place...)

did you miss the bits where Labour said a snap election was likely, and that Corbyn said labour were ready for it if it happened?

[eFestivals]

Just now, Junglist1981 said:

Enlighten me.

 

The majority of my own accountant's (a small office of the chartered types) small business clients are paying their staff more than they're paying themselves - a situation for my own business too. My current (part-time) employee earns approximately 3 times my own hourly rate, and the previous full-timer earned approximately £10kpa more than the business owner.

And that quarterly reporting will be automatic, via one of the approved software packages that HMRC obliges all businesses to now use, that are already doing monthly (or more frequently) reporting to HMRC for other factors.

Just on those two things.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, Junglist1981 said:

Studies have shown that reducing the working day to 6 hours sees an increase in productivity during work hours, plus there's more leisure time to spend money in.

but having the same output over a greater number of employees means each of those employees will earn less, meaning they have less money to spend in any leisure time.

(and while there might be a productivity boost on an individual basis, it'll be well short of the 25% difference in working hours and so wages that suggestion of 6hrs a day impacts into).

 

[Bonaneas]

1 hour ago, tarw said:

To be leader of the party that is right.  But to lead the party he can't have his fellow MPs and shadow cabinet briefing against him. 

Exactly, those MPs doing that should respect the masses that voted him in and get on with backing him and being a Labour Party member & representative and not putting their own gravy train at risk. Ideally the Corbyn thing should have happened after another huge defeat such as the one coming, which would have cleared the decks of some new labour blairite MPs and allowed the Corbyn regime to put up for selection suitable candidates fit to call themselves labour 

[Bonaneas]

55 minutes ago, clarkete said:

They don't have to be masters.  Obviously you'll be dismissive of it, as you are, but it's possible for anyone to end up in that position.  It doesn't happen often and again, arguably you'll say that they're just doing the bidding of the people who pull the strings, but there's nothing practical stopping a people's movement - if the people wanted it enough.

https://www.quora.com/Has-the-UK-ever-had-a-prime-minister-from-a-working-class-background 

Who are the half without representation if you had compulsory voting?

I've got nothing to get over, given that you and I have differing views, but thanks for your concern.
 

The half on the losing side. 

With PR + compulsory voting it could be different and everyone's vote would count, which would lead to massive surges for the small parties which is great. But that's why it won't happen. Ever. 

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, Bonaneas said:

Exactly, those MPs doing that should respect the masses that voted him in 

They don't, because they felt the membership made the wrong choice. Aren't they allowed their opinion on it as much as any member? Or as much as Corbyn even, who actively campaigned against the leaders he didn't like.

As to whether or not the membership made the wrong choice, that's definitely decided by the election.

Fact is, most who voted for Corbyn did so on a "I don't care if he loses" basis. So they're getting what they wanted, more of the tories.

Edited May 24, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

PS: anyone noticed how much more enthusiastic Corbyn is in campaigning for this election than he was for the EUref?

From the man who said he didn't do half-hearted. Does that mean he's taking a holiday in this campaign too?

There's more than just kippers to blame for brexit.

Edited May 24, 2017 by eFestivals

[Bonaneas]

Just now, eFestivals said:

They don't, because they felt the membership made the wrong choice. Aren't they allowed their opinion on it as much as any member?

As to whether or not the membership made the wrong choice, that's definitely decided by the election.

Fact is, most who voted for Corbyn did so on a "I don't care if he loses" basis. So they're getting what they wanted, more of the tories.

The opinion of less than a hundred MPs (felt as you said) should never ever come into it when stacked against the hundreds of thousands of members who voted for him. Its dismissive of an open democratic vote, and they should have been kicked out of the party and deselected. 

There is no fact at all that says people who voted for him did so on a "I don't care if he loses" basis! Don't be so silly. 

No labour leader would win this or the next 3 elections. This coming defeat is nothing to do with Corbyn. Brown got well beaten, Milliband trounced, so who out there do you think could reverse those numbers? 

[Bonaneas]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

PS: anyone noticed how much more enthusiastic Corbyn is in campaigning for this election than he was for the EUref?

From the man who said he didn't do half-hearted. Does that mean he's taking a holiday in this campaign too?

There's more than just kippers to blame for brexit.

He's been very open in his dislike of the EU. So he wasn't that fussed TBH. 

But didn't ALL party leaders step away from overtly campaigning in the EU ref? Was that a parliamentary bye-law or a gentlemans agreement thing ? 

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, Bonaneas said:

The opinion of less than a hundred MPs (felt as you said) should never ever come into it

nearly 200. 83% of the PLP.

IDS had more support from the members, but resigned when he didn't have support of MPs. That's Corbyn bettered by IDS just in case that's passing you by.

 

Quote

when stacked against the hundreds of thousands of members who voted for him.

while the members who didn't - long-serving members, not new three-quiders - count for nothing at all?

Who are the experienced politicians who know what it takes to win? Does that count for nowt?

 

Quote

Its dismissive of an open democratic vote, and they should have been kicked out of the party and deselected. 

because anyone who doesn't agree with Jezza by 100% is really a tory and should fuck off and join the tories?

That's how the standard Corbynista version of what you say there pans out. It's a crock of shit.

 

Quote

There is no fact at all that says people who voted for him did so on a "I don't care if he loses" basis! Don't be so silly. 

I suggest you find some newspaper articles from the last two years and read underneath them what the rabid Cobynistas said.

 

Quote

No labour leader would win this or the next 3 elections. This coming defeat is nothing to do with Corbyn. Brown got well beaten, Milliband trounced, so who out there do you think could reverse those numbers? 

You say there is no fact of people saying that, followed by you saying just that. I couldn't have made that up.

And yep, Brown and Miliband lost. Why did they lose? Is it because they weren't left wing enough or because they were too left wing? 

(yeah, i know, there's other factors, but that's a big chunk of it too)

Edited May 24, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, Bonaneas said:

He's been very open in his dislike of the EU. So he wasn't that fussed TBH. 

But didn't ALL party leaders step away from overtly campaigning in the EU ref? Was that a parliamentary bye-law or a gentlemans agreement thing ? 

Ok, you were obviously out of the country last June.

Or at least, i really really hope you were. The alternatives aren't great. 

[DeanoL]

33 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

did you miss the bits where Labour said a snap election was likely, and that Corbyn said labour were ready for it if it happened?

Did you miss the bit where we agreed Labour are just saying whatever they think will get them votes?

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, DeanoL said:

Did you miss the bit where we agreed Labour are just saying whatever they think will get them votes?

being as shit and as big liars as the tories, you mean?

Care to tell me how being as bad as the tories is better than the tories to make those who are happy with the shit tories swap to shit Labour instead?

[DeanoL]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

being as shit and as big liars as the tories, you mean?

Care to tell me how being as bad as the tories is better than the tories to make those who are happy with the shit tories swap to shit Labour instead?

They might find one lot of bullshit smells sweeter than the other.

[waterfalls212434]

Anyone see this? http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/theresa-may-internet-conservatives-government-a7744176.html

This paragraph jumped out at me....'The Conservatives will also seek to regulate the kind of news that is posted online and how companies are paid for it. If elected, Theresa May will "take steps to protect the reliability and objectivity of information that is essential to our democracy" – and crack down on Facebook and Google to ensure that news companies get enough advertising money.'

So basically any news reporting the tories object to will be blocked? Yeah like that wont be abused! This is scary shit. One way to block it...you know what to do in june people!

 

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by waterfalls212434

[eFestivals]

Just now, DeanoL said:

They might find one lot of bullshit smells sweeter than the other.

They do. They prefer the smell of tory bullshit, which is why Corbyn is 10+% behind in the polls.

[Bonaneas]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

nearly 200. 83% of the PLP.

 

while the members who didn't - long-serving members, not new three-quiders - count for nothing at all?

Who are the experienced politicians who know what it takes to win? Does that count for nowt?

 

because anyone who doesn't agree with Jezza by 100% is really a tory and should fuck off and join the tories?

That's how the standard Corbynista version of what you say there pans out. It's a crock of shit.

 

I suggest you find some newspaper articles from the last two years and read underneath them what the rabid Cobynistas said.

 

You say there is no fact of people saying that, followed by you saying just that. I couldn't have made that up.

And yep, Brown and Miliband lost. Why did they lose? Is it because they weren't left wing enough or because they were too left wing? 

(yeah, i know, there's other factors, but that's a big chunk of it too)

Err what you on about sunshine, I didn't say jack shit! 

You said "Fact is, most who voted for Corbyn did so on a "I don't care if he loses" basis." 

And I said don't be silly, then there is a coming defeat, which there is. 

So you did just make that up. Strange! 

BTW, I don't vote, never have and never will in this system and I most certainly never voted in labour leadership vote, never said I did, so I don't see how you can say that i voted for Corbyn because I don't care if he loses. 

And I quote "you say there is no fact of people saying that, followed by you saying just that. I couldn't have made that up. :lol:"  where did I just say that then!?!?

[Bonaneas]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

being as shit and as big liars as the tories, you mean?

Care to tell me how being as bad as the tories is better than the tories to make those who are happy with the shit tories swap to shit Labour instead?

What shit do you propose as better shit than Tory shit or the swap to shit labour? 

And I'm not asking how you're voting, I just get the impression you despise both !

Edited May 24, 2017 by Bonaneas

[eFestivals]

Just now, waterfalls212434 said:

So basically any news reporting the tories object to will be blocked? 

Have you stopped for a moment to consider what Corbyn's view is and how it doesn't differ?

As for the rest, do you think, maybe, that newspapers might be able to do a better job with more revenues, instead of their incomes withering away and leaving only the pay-for-content platforms (which is already most other festival sites to this one) or the unreliable and agenda-driven (facebook, etc)?

The devil is in the details of course, but as an outline suggestion for improved media in a time of declining news-driven media I'm all for it.

[Junglist1981]

20 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The majority of my own accountant's (a small office of the chartered types) small business clients are paying their staff more than they're paying themselves - a situation for my own business too. My current (part-time) employee earns approximately 3 times my own hourly rate, and the previous full-timer earned approximately £10kpa more than the business owner.

And that quarterly reporting will be automatic, via one of the approved software packages that HMRC obliges all businesses to now use, that are already doing monthly (or more frequently) reporting to HMRC for other factors.

Just on those two things.

Interesting. That sounds like a bad situation really. Part and parcel of running your own business of course, you work long hours and what you're left with is what you get. 

And as you know accountants do nothing for free! There will be extra work involved in producing quarterly reports and an associated fee, even if it's a piece of piss. Monthly reporting for payroll and CIS is an entirely different kettle of fish.

I wonder, how do you foresee the Tories helping you?

[Bonaneas]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

They do. They prefer the smell of tory bullshit, which is why Corbyn is 10+% behind in the polls.

Corbyn on personal ratings or the Labour Party which he leads? 

Why such hatred for Corbyn? Are you an ex soldier? Had a long chat over weekend with one of my best mates about the election, he's as labour and working class as you can get but he was also a soldier, still works privately for MoD, and he just can't put aside the IRA links and talks in same way about Corbyn, with utter distaste. Which I understand and don't blame him for, even when I said do you want an NHS & free education for your kids ? It didn't matter to him. Corbyn is an ira sympathiser & supporter and that's that for him. Fair enough. 

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Bonaneas said:

Err what you on about sunshine, I didn't say jack shit! 

You said "There is no fact at all that says people who voted for him did so on a "I don't care if he loses" basis! Don't be so silly."

followed by; "No labour leader would win this or the next 3 elections." - with is that "don't care if he loses" thing.

Would Cooper be taking May to the cleaners if she were leader? Think about it.

 

3 minutes ago, Bonaneas said:

You said "Fact is, most who voted for Corbyn did so on a "I don't care if he loses" basis." 

And I said don't be silly, then there is a coming defeat, which there is. 

So you did just make that up. Strange! 

BTW, I don't vote, never have and never will in this system and I most certainly never voted in labour leadership vote, never said I did, so I don't see how you can say that i voted for Corbyn because I don't care if he loses. 

And I quote "you say there is no fact of people saying that, followed by you saying just that. I couldn't have made that up. :lol:"  where did I just say that then!?!?

so you're not a member. It doesn't stop you having the same take as i outlined.

[eFestivals]

Just now, Bonaneas said:

Corbyn on personal ratings or the Labour Party which he leads? 

the party which he's leading.

 

Just now, Bonaneas said:

Why such hatred for Corbyn?

My 'hatred' (not hatred) is for the tories who I want to see out of power. 

Corbyn was never going to be the guy who did it. I said it back then, and it's just as true now.

 

Just now, Bonaneas said:

Which I understand and don't blame him for, even when I said do you want an NHS & free education for your kids ?

He's got an NHS and free education for his kids.

And if you're an old git like me, you'll have heard the same line for a million years, while we still have an NHS and free education for kids.

Which might, just perhaps, be the reason why that line doesn't work.

[Bonaneas]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

You said "There is no fact at all that says people who voted for him did so on a "I don't care if he loses" basis! Don't be so silly."

followed by; "No labour leader would win this or the next 3 elections." - with is that "don't care if he loses" thing.

Would Cooper be taking May to the cleaners if she were leader? Think about it.

 

so you're not a member. It doesn't stop you having the same take as i outlined.

Ahh get away! My opinion on the statistical outcome of this election, the current trading market on that result, and projecting those and other trends (& boundary & demographic changes) into the future to extrapolate an opinion that no labour (or any other party) leader can win a general election versus the tories for the next 10-15 years is a million miles away from what you're implying I said!! I couldn't give two shits who wins or loses, so to correlate the two very disparate comments is highly disingenuous, which is dissapointing because you're better than that. :-)

Cooper led labour would be further behind in the polls than Corbyn led labour.