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2 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

The Koran claims to be the exact word of God and it's believers think that every word has come directly from God. That's a big difference.

I agree that the mental/intellectual approach to their religion can often be a more fundamental one.

But that's nothing different to what Christianity used to have to a very big degree too (and which still exists to an extent today). It's a state of mind towards religion, and not to do with the religion.

If you like, one way of looking at it is that 'the west' had 500 years to adapt and work thru in our minds 'modernity', while some parts of the middle east were little more than medieval (with regard to 'modern life')until perhaps just 50 years ago (some might say much of Yemen still is).

Just as the conflicts of religion to the enlightenment caused conflict within western societies, it will do in other societies too. It's something that has to be gone thru, can't be stopped - or even isolated - but will blow itself out with time.

The right response towards it is one of vigilance and not discrimination. Discrimination is what ISIS wants.

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5 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Please, some proof that it's a small problem of only a few thousand people in the world. Anything at all? I've asked a few times now, but still waiting :P

There's about 2Bn Muslims in the world.

Every day, any one of those could drive a truck into a crowd. In fact, each Muslim could do about 20 crowds each and every day.

They don't.

Events like that are an isolated rarity.

PS: many more muslims are killed by 'islamic terrorism' than anyone else - which only gets to show it's fuck all to do with sharing a single view of what a particular book is saying.

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1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

There's about 2Bn Muslims in the world.

Every day, any one of those could drive a truck into a crowd. In fact, each Muslim could do about 20 crowds each and every day.

They don't.

Events like that are an isolated rarity.

PS: many more muslims are killed by 'islamic terrorism' than anyone else - which only gets to show it's fuck all to do with sharing a single view of what a particular book is saying.

Yeah I accept there are around 1.6 billion people in the world who believe in Islam. But I never said we should discriminate against all Muslims - far from it. I'm trying to stand up for the moderate Muslims by pointing the finger at the radicals and saying there's a problem. We should be able to stand up - with moderate Muslims standing by us - and say without fear that something in their ideology is bullshit, just like we do with any other religion or political ideology. A modern moderate Protestant understands that there is nothing wrong with being gay - because so many people have challenged him/her about it for the past thousand years. The same process has to happen with Islam.

But to say there is no connection between the two is just such a mistake.

We also first have to define what radicalism is and yes, Islamic terrorism in the last 15 years - worldwide - has killed about 28,000 people of all walks of life. Some people on here seem to think it's some kind of white/brown problem between people who find the ideology is toxic, which is such horrendous bollocks to simplify it in to racism.

At the moment terrorism is overwhelmingly coming from one group, whatever your belief on the nature of Islam really is, but we also have to think more analytically than only saying 'radicalism' means only terrorists.

Where do they get their ideas from? Where do they get their support from? Who sympathies with them? That number is far larger than the individuals who only seem to garner press and public attention as being the 'radicals'. If that were true, why aren't Christians and Hindus waging a global war of terror on non-believers?

Radicalism for me means a variety of things. Radical ideas that gays should be killed, or that women are low on the totem pole, or that victims of rape are actually the ones to be blamed. All from the word of God, not men.

Yeah, exactly! More Muslims die in Pakistan and India and Iran because of Muslim on Muslim violence. But they're still doing it out of God's voice, still killing the non-believers. I don't know if you've noticed, but the Sunni and Shia populations don't really like each other, but they both take their ideas from the same book. So either they're both right, or one of them is right, or neither, but they're still quite happy to use violence in the name of something - using the same book.
 

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2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I agree that the mental/intellectual approach to their religion can often be a more fundamental one.

But that's nothing different to what Christianity used to have to a very big degree too (and which still exists to an extent today). It's a state of mind towards religion, and not to do with the religion.

If you like, one way of looking at it is that 'the west' had 500 years to adapt and work thru in our minds 'modernity', while some parts of the middle east were little more than medieval (with regard to 'modern life')until perhaps just 50 years ago (some might say much of Yemen still is).

Just as the conflicts of religion to the enlightenment caused conflict within western societies, it will do in other societies too. It's something that has to be gone thru, can't be stopped - or even isolated - but will blow itself out with time.

The right response towards it is one of vigilance and not discrimination. Discrimination is what ISIS wants.

What do you think is the main reason for the Middle East and North Africa being held back in science and enlightenment? Hundreds of years ago the Middle East was an amazing bedrock of science and mathematics, but the introduction of religion greatly diminished their societal evolution.

What evidence do you have of it blowing itself out? In what way is it blowing itself out right now? If anything, the idea of ISIS - who are funded by Saudi Arabia - is getting stronger. They spread across Syria in no time. No slogan is going to stop them. They'll continue to radicalise young men who are looking to be radicalised and they'll use the Koran to do it and more attacks will happen. In the last few years alone we've seen more and more of it happen and it'll only get worse, but ignoring there's a problem, will only further the far Right - which is exactly what I don't want either.



 

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7 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

What do you think is the main reason for the Middle East and North Africa being held back in science and enlightenment? Hundreds of years ago the Middle East was an amazing bedrock of science and mathematics, but the introduction of religion greatly diminished their societal evolution.
 

Cant argue with this. ALL religion is absurd and it needs phasing out. The only way to do this is by education. And of course the religious leaders realise this, so restrict or manipulate the education people receive. 

Hopefully in the age of the internet etc enlightenment will come much much quicker than in the past.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, russycarps said:

Cant argue with this. ALL religion is absurd and it needs phasing out. The only way to do this is by education. And of course the religious leaders realise this, so restrict or manipulate the education people receive. 

Hopefully in the age of the internet etc enlightenment will come much much quicker than in the past.

 

 

Yes, exactly. I really do think the whole idea of religion is a con.

Education, criticism, non-violence; all musts.

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8 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Yes, exactly. I really do think the whole idea of religion is a con.

Education, criticism, non-violence; all musts.

Religion is the greatest idea man ever had, if you're at the top of the tree. Imagine, an invention that allows you to control literally billions of people. Incredible really.

I can understand people in the developing world falling for the religion con - they have no education, they know no better - but what of the religious types in the developed world. What is their excuse? There are people who have had the finest education at the greatest academic institutions in the world who have religious beliefs. It's utterly baffling.

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8 minutes ago, russycarps said:

Religion is the greatest idea man ever had, if you're at the top of the tree. Imagine, and invention that allows you to control literally billions of people. Incredible really.

I can understand people in the developing world falling for the religion con - they have no education, they know no better - but what of the religious types in the developed world. What is their excuse? There are people who have had the finest education at the greatest academic institutions in the world who have religious beliefs. It's utterly baffling.

Yeah fuck knows, really know idea how anyone can believe it myself.
Religion for me is definitely man-made, but not all are the same. I think that's something a lot of people don't understand, that you can't compare one religion with another. We're routinely taught in school to find similarities and differences in everything, but for some where religion is concerned, all bets are off, all logic goes out the window.

I suppose what I've been trying to say here has rubbed some people up the wrong way and I know it's not the best place to air my thoughts, but if anyone reads this and would like a better understanding of someone who speaks more eloquently on the subject if religion and also Islamic radicals would be Sam Harris.
 

 

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3 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

By people on this board. By you. There's plenty of evidence of people ignoring the obvious, yourself included. That's a free pass. Saying that the death of 12 and the injury of 49, plus the 2 other men who were arrested today for plotting another terror attack, for claiming that ISIS and all the other terror groups have no connection to Islam. It's unhelpful and it gets in the way of critical thought.

For claiming that a financially tight lorry truck manager is the same as a terrorist who willfully wants to kill as many people as possible. The truck manager clearly doesn't intend to kill people. That denial is a free pass. It's a massive free pass.

Now show me the evidence you have there is no problem. Prove to me that ISIS are not reading the Koran word for word. Or the other hundreds of groups who support them. Now prove to me why we can't criticise the ideology that connects all these people. You prove to me that there isn't a problem in Saudi Arabia/Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan/Egypt/Morocco/Libya with honour killings, killings of gays, stoning's of women - all come from Sharia law and all come one religion. Explain to me why they're all innocent and nothing connects them

Ok, you believe there is a problem, with Islam, or Islamic countries, I'm not 100% sure where you think the primary issue is.  To save anyone putting any words in your mouth, what specifically do you think should be done about the problem?

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1 hour ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Ok, you believe there is a problem, with Islam, or Islamic countries, I'm not 100% sure where you think the primary issue is.  To save anyone putting any words in your mouth, what specifically do you think should be done about the problem?

The primary issue? Multi-culturalism has failed. But I'm not saying multi-ethnicity which some seem to push upon me. There's a difference. Also, there's a problem with Islamic radicalism and by proxy extremism. Sarkozy, Merkel and Cameron have all said it, but perhaps Douglas Murray and Sam Harris say it better, before anyone tries to discredit me as if I'm saying something new. Some on here seem to suggest that there is no connection between radicalism and terror, or the idea of divine commands on Islamic terrorists. They get their ideas from somewhere and the primary issue is that so many people are denying it.

I agree that if there was a war in the UK that tore the country apart, would the majority of people want to stay in France and Spain, or somewhere further like Asia?
 

 

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2 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Yeah I accept there are around 1.6 billion people in the world who believe in Islam. But I never said we should discriminate against all Muslims - far from it. I'm trying to stand up for the moderate Muslims by pointing the finger at the radicals and saying there's a problem. We should be able to stand up - with moderate Muslims standing by us - and say without fear that something in their ideology is bullshit, just like we do with any other religion or political ideology. A modern moderate Protestant understands that there is nothing wrong with being gay - because so many people have challenged him/her about it for the past thousand years. The same process has to happen with Islam.


 

 

You did infer 'we' discriminate against all muslims with your nudge, wink style of bigotry ("what do all these atrocities have in common" spiel earlier in the thread), I'm glad you've now back tracked from that because it's a stupid stance to try and justify.

America just elected Trump- good luck on them having any moral authority when it comes to women rights (with a president who boasts about sexually assaulting women), or gay rights (especially with a vice president who opposes gay marrage), or racism (look at the beliefs of his supporters)- what exactly would they be calling bullshit on? Many Trump supporters share roughly the same views as many of of the bigoted people among various muslim populations.

Again you paint the West as a socialist Utopia, that doesn't exist. Lecturing other countries doesn't work because they don't particularly care what other countries have to say, and they see through the hypocrisy when they do. You can't select the best of the West and present that as the standard, and then take the worst of elsewhere and claim thats the standard.

What do you do to stand against racism, sexism and homophobia here? Anything? because all you seem to have don on this thread is promote bigotry (before trying to backtrack), yet you seem to think you're morally enlightened and need to teach others how to have more open minded values. It's a strange stance.

Edited by Mr.Tease
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2 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:



Where do they get their ideas from? Where do they get their support from? Who sympathies with them? That number is far larger than the individuals who only seem to garner press and public attention as being the 'radicals'. If that were true, why aren't Christians and Hindus waging a global war of terror on non-believers?


 

Because most international disputes (even ones depicted as religious disputes e.g.. northern ireland) are actually nationalist disputes- ISIS are doing what they are doing partly because they are trying to carve out some territory and think that by having people killed in the west, it will impact their foreign policy towards it, and secondly because ISIS is also some sort of weird death cult that attracts the homicidal. It's about ISIS leadership trying to expand their power, and a bunch of loser-followers trying to feel important, it's got very little to do with spreading religion.

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45 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

The primary issue? Multi-culturalism has failed. But I'm not saying multi-ethnicity which some seem to push upon me. There's a difference. Also, there's a problem with Islamic radicalism and by proxy extremism. Sarkozy, Merkel and Cameron have all said it, but perhaps Douglas Murray and Sam Harris say it better, before anyone tries to discredit me as if I'm saying something new. Some on here seem to suggest that there is no connection between radicalism and terror, or the idea of divine commands on Islamic terrorists. They get their ideas from somewhere and the primary issue is that so many people are denying it.

I agree that if there was a war in the UK that tore the country apart, would the majority of people want to stay in France and Spain, or somewhere further like Asia?
 

 

So what exactly is this single culture that we all have or need to have, and what do we do to anyone that doesn't share it? Do we kill them or just banish them? It's to do with freedom and rights isn't?

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1 hour ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

The primary issue? Multi-culturalism has failed. But I'm not saying multi-ethnicity which some seem to push upon me. There's a difference. Also, there's a problem with Islamic radicalism and by proxy extremism. Sarkozy, Merkel and Cameron have all said it, but perhaps Douglas Murray and Sam Harris say it better, before anyone tries to discredit me as if I'm saying something new. Some on here seem to suggest that there is no connection between radicalism and terror, or the idea of divine commands on Islamic terrorists. They get their ideas from somewhere and the primary issue is that so many people are denying it.

I agree that if there was a war in the UK that tore the country apart, would the majority of people want to stay in France and Spain, or somewhere further like Asia?
 

 

OK, I'm now clear on what you see as the problem, thanks for that, but to answer my main question - what are you proposing should be done? 

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5 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Proof please that isn't anecdotal, because that's equally bullshit.

By your logic a person who knows a rapist, could say all men are rapists :lol:

Please, some proof that it's a small problem of only a few thousand people in the world. Anything at all? I've asked a few times now, but still waiting :P

Prove every Muslim is a terrorist then!

If you can't then kindly fuck off.

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19 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

Prove every Muslim is a terrorist then!

If you can't then kindly fuck off.

I am looking forward to his response because likely it will be along the lines of make them pledge allegiance to him and only allow them to live here if they believe what he believes, all in the name of furthering his belief in anti oppression and western enlightenment! 

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1 hour ago, Mr.Tease said:

 

You did infer 'we' discriminate against all muslims with your nudge, wink style of bigotry ("what do all these atrocities have in common" spiel earlier in the thread), I'm glad you've now back tracked from that because it's a stupid stance to try and justify.

America just elected Trump- good luck on them having any moral authority when it comes to women rights (with a president who boasts about sexually assaulting women), or gay rights (especially with a vice president who opposes gay marrage), or racism (look at the beliefs of his supporters)- what exactly would they be calling bullshit on? Many Trump supporters share roughly the same views as many of of the bigoted people among various muslim populations.

Again you paint the West as a socialist Utopia, that doesn't exist. Lecturing other countries doesn't work because they don't particularly care what other countries have to say, and they see through the hypocrisy when they do. You can't select the best of the West and present that as the standard, and then take the worst of elsewhere and claim thats the standard.

What do you do to stand against racism, sexism and homophobia here? Anything? because all you seem to have don on this thread is promote bigotry (before trying to backtrack), yet you seem to think you're morally enlightened and need to teach others how to have more open minded values. It's a strange stance.

So I can't use the pronoun 'we' without some hysterical comment from you? Right...

I'm not here standing up for Trump, I'm just here, shocked that so many people are putting their head in the sand about an obvious and clear problem.

What bigotry have I said? Please show me precise comments where I've said that that one colour person or something similar is better? Just because you're getting upset by what I've said doesn't make you right. It just sounds like you don't use a lot of rational thoughts or facts, just your emotions to determine the truth in something.

And fucking hell, I've not ever said the West is this perfect place Utopia. Please present evidence when I have.

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46 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

OK, I'm now clear on what you see as the problem, thanks for that, but to answer my main question - what are you proposing should be done? 

Well, I just said that wouldn't it make sense to help these people find a safe space in socieities that would be more in line with their own culture.

As for the refugees and economic migrants that are already here all we can do is process them fairly and quickly, although there aren't many easy ways of doing that, give refuge to the ones who are already here and send the illegal asylum seekers back home - like the law and any rational person would say.

What would your idea be to continue from here? Or do you think everything is working just fine?

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46 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

Prove every Muslim is a terrorist then!

If you can't then kindly fuck off.

Bloody hell. I can tell you're not thinking straight because you're getting too angry.

Since when did I say that every Muslim was a terrorist?! You're just flat out lying and not even trying to understand what I'm saying.

This is the kind of extreme Left drivel that I would expect on CNN. 

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1 hour ago, Mr.Tease said:

Because most international disputes (even ones depicted as religious disputes e.g.. northern ireland) are actually nationalist disputes- ISIS are doing what they are doing partly because they are trying to carve out some territory and think that by having people killed in the west, it will impact their foreign policy towards it, and secondly because ISIS is also some sort of weird death cult that attracts the homicidal. It's about ISIS leadership trying to expand their power, and a bunch of loser-followers trying to feel important, it's got very little to do with spreading religion.

Yes, but what is the nation that ISIS are trying to form? It's a religious Caliphate. They're trying to create a nation of Islam.

Perhaps you could explain why it seems that Islam is so easily manipulated in to attracting people? Could it be, because people believe in it?

ISIS is extreme, but they're supported financially and spiritually by Saudi Arabia - again, that's just another fact.

Stop using your moral compass to cloud your reasoned judgement!

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42 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

I am looking forward to his response because likely it will be along the lines of make them pledge allegiance to him and only allow them to live here if they believe what he believes, all in the name of furthering his belief in anti oppression and western enlightenment! 

I only just saw this, but I don't really understand your meaning. My anti-oppression? You mean that I stand by women, gays, moderate Muslims against radical ideas in Islamic ideology? My belief in Western what? Enlightenment?! :rolleyes:

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Well he's dead now.. And I'm SO sorry for him... Not but I do feel for his family that will now and forever be tarred by his actions... 

Can we go back normal now.......................................... Argumentative sods 

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