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Thoughts go out to those in Berlin


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14 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

What evidence would you like? The data I've already shown you from the GErman government itself? Or the human rights problems on the website www.hrw.org? Or the lists of radical groups who fight in the name of Allah?

I'd like the evidence to back up what you said, that the terrorists have a free pass.

By who? Where?

 

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1 minute ago, rubenz said:

Suspect shot dead in a random police stop within 48 hours having left his I.D in the truck. No interrogation, no trial, no proof. I'm not really a conspiracy theorist but you could have guessed that outcome pretty easily.

don your tinfoil hat

I think it's fairly likely that if a suspect was on the run and then randomly pulled over by police he'd panic and try and shoot his way out - which is what happened

 

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Just now, rubenz said:

Suspect shot dead in a random police stop within 48 hours having left his I.D in the truck. No interrogation, no trial, no proof. I'm not really a conspiracy theorist but you could have guessed that outcome pretty easily.

My thoughts exactly.

See also, the dropped wallet of lee harvey oswald, the neat bundle of incriminating belongings conveniently left behind by james earl ray, the passports from the 9/11 hijackers, the ID card from the mastermind of the paris attacks....

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2 minutes ago, rubenz said:

Suspect shot dead in a random police stop within 48 hours having left his I.D in the truck. No interrogation, no trial, no proof. I'm not really a conspiracy theorist but you could have guessed that outcome pretty easily.

it can be guessed at for many reasons, including that an old bill who habitually carry and use guns isn't going to be slow in ensuring a suspected terrorist (and suspected for very strong reasons) got the smallest opportunity to perhaps do them harm.

Thinking it's all conspiracy would mean Syria hadn't being bombed to shit to create the refugees where one might be a terrorist in the first place. :P

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apologies if already posted

narrative makes interesting reading:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/truth-berlin-christmas-market-terror-9500721?service=responsive

The easiest thing to do when something awful happens is to do something awful yourself.

So a man steals a Polish truck and ploughs through a crowd of Christmas market shoppers in Berlin, and it turns out he had claimed asylum, and a lot of people go "well it just goes to show you shouldn't let them in".

I've lost count of the number of people who've said since: "This is the legacy of Angela Merkel's open door to refugees."

Well, no it isn't.

This is the legacy of people who believe that what they FEEL is the truth must BE the truth. And that's not how truth works.

Here is the truth we know so far.

In 2010 Anis Amri, the Berlin terror attack suspect, was accused of stealing a lorry in his homeland of Tunisia. His family say he drank, had girlfriends, and was not overtly religious.

In February 2011 he was charged with armed robbery but fled the country. He was convicted in his absence and handed a five year sentence.

He went to Italy, where he claimed asylum as a minor - he was probably about 17 at the time - but after a series of crimes including arson at a school he was given a four-year jail sentence.


Upon his release in early 2015 he was taken to a detention centre to await deportation. His family say he had become religious. In July his expulsion order expired because Tunisia didn't sort out the paperwork.

He was ordered to leave Italy anyway, and so crossed into Germany where he claimed asylum in July 2015.

In August 2015, German president Angela Merkel responded to the growing migrant crisis by saying her country would take in 1million Syrians.

She was heavily criticised by right-wing politicians, who said this was an open invitation to terrorists.

In February 2016 Amri moved to Berlin and a month later came under investigation after a tip-off to police that he was preparing an act of terror.

In June 2016 his claim for asylum was rejected. He was detained for a day but because he had no identity documents they could not establish he was the right man, so had to let him go. By this point he claimed six separate identities and three different nationalities.

In August 2016 Amri was arrested for a minor offence, and Germany asked Tunisia to provide a passport so they could deport him.

In September 2016 surveillance was called off. Amri was seen dealing drugs and fighting in a bar, but there was no sign of terrorism.

Last month extremists linked to Amri were arrested and questioned. Security services exchanged information and police issued a warning that Amri is dangerous.

On December 21, 2016, Amri is thought to have hijacked a lorry carrying 25 tonnes of steel just outside Berlin.

Polish lorry driver Lukasz Urban was parked near a kebab shop. At 3pm he spoke to his wife. At 3.19pm and 3.44pm his employer's tracking computer registered failed attempts to start the engine.

Urban is thought to have been stabbed and beaten, probably into unconsciousness, as this was a public place and stabbing is quiet.

At 5pm and 5.34pm the lorry was driven short distances by someone who was 'choking' the engine. At 7.34pm it was in the square where the Christmas market was being held.

Shortly after 8pm the lorry's lights were switched off and it lorry swerved right at speed, into the crowd. lt killed 12 people and injured another 48, 18 of them critically.

What is odd is that the lorry swerved left again almost immediately, back onto the street and away from the shoppers, before coming to a halt. The hijacker got out and ran away.

A passerby saw and gave chase, providing a running commentary to police on his mobile phone, but lost him in the crowds.

Lukasz' body was found in the cab, along with a lot of blood and Amri's wallet.

Lukasz' family say from the pictures they have seen and police reports, he appears to have fought with his attacker.

Which means that a stabbed and heavily-bleeding man awoke from unconsciousness to realise his attacker was about to mow down pedestrians.

He may have grabbed the wheel or punched the hijacker, but his actions caused the lorry to veer away from other shoppers and come to a halt.

Lukasz was 6ft 2ins and weighed 18 stone, and despite his injuries he put up an heroic fight.

The hijacker killed Lukasz with a gunshot. By this point, the noise no longer mattered.

You see? No terrorist steers their truck AWAY from the crowds

Lukasz is dead, along with a dozen others. Amri is on the run. The German security forces look like idiots and Angela Merkel is taking the blame for all of it.

But the facts tell a different story to the one you're hearing from people with shouty voices and tiny minds.

The massacre would have been many times worse were it not for the actions of a Polish lorry driver who depended upon the reviled border-free Schengen zone for his livelihood.

Had Germany thrown up borders as so many want it to, there would still have been trucks for a terrorist to hijack.

Lukasz would not have been among their drivers. Lukasz saved hundreds of lives yet is little more than a footnote in the furore.

The German security forces had Amri in their sights, but no evidence.

A civilised nation does not charge or jail anyone for a thing they MIGHT do. If we do it to terrorists, then we will do it to anyone.

The simple and hard truth is that if a few thousand people want to kill you, one of them will probably manage it.

They only have to get it right once.

Germany did not 'let Amri in', and nor did Italy. He was denied asylum in two nations which picked him up on their radar in exactly the way they should have done.

It was Tunisia who allowed a wanted criminal to roam free, and to leave its borders.

It was Tunisia who refused to accept him back.

It was Tunisia that took four months to issue a passport.

And it's Tunisia that has a massive problem with terrorism, and an estimated 7,000 of its citizens who are members of Islamic State.

And this is not Angela Merkel's legacy. She did not open the door to armed robbers, she did not offer asylum to Tunisians, and Amri got into Germany a month before she opened the door to anyone else.

Her legacy is that she did a decent thing, despite the criticism. Thousands of Germans welcomed the migrants and opened their homes. However well or badly that went they were decent, they were kind, they were open.

Amri was not a refugee. He was a wrong 'un before he was radicalised, a wrong 'un afterwards, and he'll be just as wrong when he's shot dead by the police on his trail and finds out there's no heaven for wrong 'uns.

We are at war - with a few thousand people out there who want to kill us, and a few thousand in here who want to frighten us. Who bend the truth to suit their nightmares, to seize power, to get paid for spouting stupidity, and who simply don't care when they've got it wrong.

They don't realise they're on the same side as the terrorists. They all want us to turn away, punish others and polarise.

Being open doesn't terrorise anyone. Being decent doesn't get you killed. And the truth NEVER goes away.

Edited by 5co77ie
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6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'd like the evidence to back up what you said, that the terrorists have a free pass.

By who? Where?

 

By people on this board. By you. There's plenty of evidence of people ignoring the obvious, yourself included. That's a free pass. Saying that the death of 12 and the injury of 49, plus the 2 other men who were arrested today for plotting another terror attack, for claiming that ISIS and all the other terror groups have no connection to Islam. It's unhelpful and it gets in the way of critical thought.

For claiming that a financially tight lorry truck manager is the same as a terrorist who willfully wants to kill as many people as possible. The truck manager clearly doesn't intend to kill people. That denial is a free pass. It's a massive free pass.

Now show me the evidence you have there is no problem. Prove to me that ISIS are not reading the Koran word for word. Or the other hundreds of groups who support them. Now prove to me why we can't criticise the ideology that connects all these people. You prove to me that there isn't a problem in Saudi Arabia/Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan/Egypt/Morocco/Libya with honour killings, killings of gays, stoning's of women - all come from Sharia law and all come one religion. Explain to me why they're all innocent and nothing connects them

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11 minutes ago, russycarps said:

I've studied this topic deeply. You share the viewpoint of Anders Breivik. Have a little think about that.

 

I've studied it too, but you can't say it was just to claim back a single church, it's far too complex for that.


What Breiveik did was awful and his beliefs should be criticized as much as anyone - and we should do the same with the beliefs of the Berlin truck driver.

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9 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

By people on this board. By you. There's plenty of evidence of people ignoring the obvious, yourself included. That's a free pass.

A free pass to who, for what?

I'm not giving terrorists a free pass.

Just because you say it, it doesn't make it true. That's another of those awkward facts.

Edited by eFestivals
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1 minute ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

What Breiveik did was awful and his beliefs should be criticized as much as anyone - and we should do the same with the beliefs of the Berlin truck driver.

assuming that his belief was in 'Islamic terrorism' then I'm not aware of anyone who isn't criticising it.

Care to say you are referring to for not criticising it?

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3 minutes ago, russycarps said:

Interesting, but the rant about tunisia at the end was unnecessary.

 

agreed but you gotta appease the nutters by blaming someone i guess. Seems a bit of a random end to a measured article - probably subbed by his editor who had a crap holiday in Tunisia

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15 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Prove to me that ISIS are not reading the Koran word for word.

:rolleyes:

Just like the bible - much of which makes up the Koran, don't forget - it says many things, and where most conflict with something else it says. There are only interpretations to be made.

It's a tiny minority that go with the extreme interpretation, just as it's only a tiny minority who go with the extreme interpretations of Christianity.

(a Christianity, I might add, that claims itself as the one true faith and damns [and worse] all others as heathens - the exact motivator being used by 'Islamic terrorists').

If association to a book is damning to all, us Christians are fucked too. 

Edited by eFestivals
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3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

A free pass to who, for what?

I'm not giving terrorists a free pass.

Just because you say it, it doesn't make it true. That's another of those awkward facts.

Now who is trying to be diversionary. Jesus.

Just because you label me talking about all muslims, doesn't make it true either. Never ever have I said all. You sound like the Left media in America now. Contort and change what I've said.

Prove to me the things I asked for. Some evidence to support that there isn't a problem within this ideology in the countries where the 1 million (in Germany alone) came from. All the terrorist attacks in France as well this year. Prove to me there isn't a connection apart from your pseudo science

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7 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

I've studied it too, but you can't say it was just to claim back a single church, it's far too complex for that.


 

by the time of the first crusade the land had been held by jews and muslims for over 450 years. In an act of aggression the crusaders invaded to seize the holy sepulchre. That's it. 

 

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Just now, eFestivals said:

:rolleyes:

Just like the bible - much of which makes up the Koran, don't forget - it says many things, and where most conflict with something else it says. There are only interpretations to be made.

It's a tiny minority that go with the extreme interpretation, just as it's only a tiny extreme who go with the extreme interpretations of Christianity.

(a Christianity, I might add, that claims itself as the one true faith and damns [and worse] all others as heathens - the exact motivator being used by 'Islamic terrorists').

If association to a book is damning to all, us Christians are fucked too. 

Yeah, that's another fallacy. There are some stark difference between the Bible and the Koran and you should be able to apply different reasoning to them both. There's not some kind of blanket cover all ideology in all religions.

It's widely known that the Bible was written by men, not by God, who were writing their own version of what happened. The Koran claims to be the exact word of God and it's believers think that every word has come directly from God. That's a big difference. If you can accept that as fact, which it is, one could rationally make the argument that if anything, that ISIS were conducting out the rules of the Koran better than anyone else.

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1 minute ago, russycarps said:

by the time of the first crusade the land had been held by jews and muslims for over 450 years. In an act of aggression the crusaders invaded to seize the holy sepulchre. That's it. 

 

Yeah I agree that, that is one part of it but not all of it, but then historians don't always agree either.

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3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

which ideology?

Cos I can't recognise a sharing of ideology with Mo my local craft jeweller.

The only ideology that the terrorists share is one of terrorism with other terrorists.

Proof please that isn't anecdotal, because that's equally bullshit.

By your logic a person who knows a rapist, could say all men are rapists :lol:

Please, some proof that it's a small problem of only a few thousand people in the world. Anything at all? I've asked a few times now, but still waiting :P

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