Thoughts go out to those in Berlin

[Alex DeLarge]

Thank you to all who pointed out the terrorist's background to me, so not only was Farage's point odious and awfully timed, it was also wrong. What a shocker ey?

[Cornelius_Fudge]

23 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I'm saying the majority of attacks have been by people who've been thru the normal vetting processes of the sort Farage says he supports - or none at all because they're natives - and not from the large number of refugees who came thru Greece a year or two ago.

Right I see your point, but while you morally shouldn''t paint all people with the same brush, he implied quite strongly that there would be a problem from accepting so many people from that corner of the world and as it turns out he was completely right, whether you like him as a person or not.

And let's be honest that some of these native French, German, Belgian terrorists all have some striking similarities, despite what the ink says in their visa/passport.

[stuartbert two hats]

9 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

And let's be honest that some of these native French, German, Belgian terrorists all have some striking similarities, despite what the ink says in their visa/passport.

They're brown?  Seriously though, what are the similarities you're talking about?

 

Quote

Right I see your point, but while you morally shouldn''t paint all people with the same brush, he implied quite strongly that there would be a problem from accepting so many people from that corner of the world and as it turns out he was completely right, whether you like him as a person or not.
 

But wasn't he saying the problem was Syrian refugees, not Tunisia?  Or are you saying they are from the same corner of the world?  They may be both North Africa, but those countries are fairly far apart?

Edited December 22, 2016 by stuartbert two hats
responding to "corner of the world"

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

there would be a problem from accepting so many people from that corner of the world

there would be a problem ewith accepting so many people from any corner of the world.

Within all groups of people some are the scumbags. You don't get to find out they're the scumbags until they do something scumbaggish.

Farage might as well be saying Germany should expel the Germans to keep itself safe.

There is very definitely no disproportionately large problem amongst those refugees. It it was anything like Farage was really meaning all of europe would be in flames right now.

In the sensible world, people are not deemed guilty via an association alone. That's what Trumnp the c**t wants to bring in tho, and what Farage does.

Perhaps we should expel the Christian Church from Europe cos we know there's paedos within it? It makes at least as much sense.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

3 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

They're brown?

That's cute, but you know and everyone else knows what I mean.

[stuartbert two hats]

Just now, Cornelius_Fudge said:

That's cute, but you know and everyone else knows what I mean.

They're Muslims?  How many guesses do I get?

[Cornelius_Fudge]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

there would be a problem ewith accepting so many people from any corner of the world.

Within all groups of people some are the scumbags. You don't get to find out they're the scumbags until they do something scumbaggish.

Farage might as well be saying Germany should expel the Germans to keep itself safe.

There is very definitely no disproportionately large problem amongst those refugees. It it was anything like Farage was really meaning all of europe would be in flames right now.

In the sensible world, people are not deemed guilty via an association alone. That's what Trumnp the c**t wants to bring in tho, and what Farage does.

Perhaps we should expel the Christian Church from Europe cos we know there's paedos within it? It makes at least as much sense.

While the sentiment is true, based on the idea that all countries are as free and open as Europe, it wouldn't be such a problem if a million French up sticks and walked in to Germany. I doubt that very much. Or if a million Orthodox Jews or Buddhists came in to Europe? Absolutely not.

No, not guilt by association, but guilt by belief in an ideology definitely. If it was a group of Presbyterians going around killing and driving lorries in to people, the population of Europe would be banging on their door asking for answers. The paedos in the Catholic church were found out and countries rightly demanded answers - which is exactly what we should be doing with Islam and the people who speak for it.

There actually are statistics that show a disproportionate accountability of immigrants/refugees. It's in German tho...
http://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/DE/2016/05/pks-und-pmk-2015.html

I agree about the scumbaggish stuff and that would be true if all people were believing the same kind of things, but it's such a folly to discount that there's not a problem within Islam and the believers of Islam. Suppression of women is not okay, suppression of gays is not okay, the killing of people in the name of God is not okay
 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

13 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

They're Muslims?  How many guesses do I get?

Gold star for you!

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

No, not guilt by association, but guilt by belief in an ideology definitely.

yep - which is *only* the terrorists and no one else.

16 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

The paedos in the Catholic church were found out and countries rightly demanded answers - which is exactly what we should be doing with Islam and the people who speak for it.

There was no restriction put o the movement of catholics tho, was there?

Meanwhile, you're equating Muslim to terrorist, again.

So all people of christian heritage are homophobes, comfortable with slavery, and should demand the right to marry a 12 year old?

The only people who speak for the terrorists are the terrorists.

[eFestivals]

20 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

it's such a folly to discount that there's not a problem within Islam and the believers of Islam

Just some.

A tiny tiny tiny TINY proportion of them.

Just as there is with Christians, Buddhistss (have you checked out how much terrorism they're up to at the mo? More than Muslims!) and plenty of others.

It's what comes from believing yourself more righteous than others, so that you end up believing you should have special powers and rights over others.

Now there's a thing, eh?

[Cornelius_Fudge]

2 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

They're brown?  Seriously though, what are the similarities you're talking about?

 

But wasn't he saying the problem was Syrian refugees, not Tunisia?  Or are you saying they are from the same corner of the world?  They may be both North Africa, but those countries are fairly far apart?

FFS. Are you seriously ignoring the problem to this extent?

12 people have just died and you think the only thing that connects them is their skin colour. Startling.

[Nobody Interesting]

13 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

FFS. Are you seriously ignoring the problem to this extent?

12 people have just died and you think the only thing that connects them is their skin colour. Startling.

In the 1970's the IRA, Ulster Volunteers and others all killed people. Should we tar all Christians whether Protestant or Catholic with the same brush because of a small minority or should we have shunned all Irish people?

Reading some of your posts and their hidden and not so hidden suggestions sickens me.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

yep - which is *only* the terrorists and no one else.

There was no restriction put o the movement of catholics tho, was there?

Meanwhile, you're equating Muslim to terrorist, again.

So all people of christian heritage are homophobes, comfortable with slavery, and should demand the right to marry a 12 year old?

The only people who speak for the terrorists are the terrorists.

Hey, slow down a bit with your accusations. I've not said once that this applies to all Muslims or all Catholics etc. But to not even be able to say that there might be a connection is not only damaging to the way we can talk about it, but to ignore the obvious is just a waste of everyone's time and also a discredit to the people who have died by any act of terrorism. 

If you look at the countries where the majority of the migrants and refugees have come from; countries where homosexuality, apostates, and women are killed/lashed/mutilated for pretty reasonable things, perhaps you can explain to me why there is an overwhelming worldwide problem with one religion and not others for violence, oppression and tyranny.

Look at Turkey. I suppose you think that Erdoguan brought in religion in Turkey and has systematically destroyed the wonderful work of Atatürk, but there's no connection? 

If people on here think that Farage is powerful and dangerous enough to cause a scumbag to kill a woman, then imagine if Farage had a book dedicated to him, was indoctrinated in many countries for hundreds of years, was believed by 1.6 billion people, and was believed to be the only voice you should listen to. Imagine the chaos. There'd be plenty of killings from right wing nut jobs then, and there'd be plenty of people defending Farage too so it would seem

 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

1 minute ago, Nobody Interesting said:

In the 1970's the IRA, Ulster Volunteers and others all killed people. Should we tar all Christians whether Protestant or Catholic with the same brush because of a small minority or should we have shunned all Irish people?

Reading some of your posts and their hidden and not so hidden suggestions sickens me.

I'm sorry that you're so easily sickened, but why are you disgusted by what I've said? If I've said something genuinely sickening, please explain. 

It's a fallacy to think that this is the same. You're comparing apples and oranges. How many people did the IRA etc kill during the Troubles? About 1,800.

How many Islamic terror groups are there? On the list on Wikipedia which anyone is free to look at themselves, there's too many to count. The death toll is also way higher and has been happening since the Moors left Spain. 

[Alex DeLarge]

5 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

I'm sorry that you're so easily sickened, but why are you disgusted by what I've said? If I've said something genuinely sickening, please explain. 

It's a fallacy to think that this is the same. You're comparing apples and oranges. How many people did the IRA etc kill during the Troubles? About 1,800.

How many Islamic terror groups are there? On the list on Wikipedia which anyone is free to look at themselves, there's too many to count. The death toll is also way higher and has been happening since the Moors left Spain. 

Does that mean we should not allow Islamic immigration then?
 

600 British Muslims have joined ISIS, many of whom have been radicalised online, never coming into contact with Syrian ISIS members. Does that mean all British Muslims should be banned from Germany? Should Sadiq Khan not be allowed to travel Europe? 

[Mr.Tease]

38 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Hey, slow down a bit with your accusations. I've not said once that this applies to all Muslims or all Catholics etc. But to not even be able to say that there might be a connection is not only damaging to the way we can talk about it, but to ignore the obvious is just a waste of everyone's time and also a discredit to the people who have died by any act of terrorism. 

If you look at the countries where the majority of the migrants and refugees have come from; countries where homosexuality, apostates, and women are killed/lashed/mutilated for pretty reasonable things, perhaps you can explain to me why there is an overwhelming worldwide problem with one religion and not others for violence, oppression and tyranny.

Look at Turkey. I suppose you think that Erdoguan brought in religion in Turkey and has systematically destroyed the wonderful work of Atatürk, but there's no connection? 

If people on here think that Farage is powerful and dangerous enough to cause a scumbag to kill a woman, then imagine if Farage had a book dedicated to him, was indoctrinated in many countries for hundreds of years, was believed by 1.6 billion people, and was believed to be the only voice you should listen to. Imagine the chaos. There'd be plenty of killings from right wing nut jobs then, and there'd be plenty of people defending Farage too so it would seem

 

Women and gay people are killed, raped, beaten in western countries too- racism, misogyny and homophobia is present in all societies, and bigots will use whoever crap to justify it, be religion,  ideology or whatever. 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

30 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Does that mean we should not allow Islamic immigration then?
 

600 British Muslims have joined ISIS, many of whom have been radicalised online, never coming into contact with Syrian ISIS members. Does that mean all British Muslims should be banned from Germany? Should Sadiq Khan not be allowed to travel Europe? 

Okay, I see I haven't explained myself correctly. That's not what I'm saying,and I'm certainly not saying we should be rounding people up, or blocking all Muslims from travel. I said at the start of this discussion that Merkel should take some of the blame for her naive policy of open armed welcoming of immigrants and then everyone became hysterical and started doling out false comparisons and false narratives. 

I'll say it again for your benefit; I've never said to ban the movement of all Muslims. Stop putting words in my mouth. I have said that welcoming large numbers in from North Africa and the Middle East has been a problem. Which is correct or have you had your eyes closed for the past three years? 

But to just deny that there's a problem, whilst it's an incredibly moral viewpoint (which would work in a perfect world if everyone adhered to it), it just doesn't make any sense. A detective doesn't leave a similar crime scene that he's seeing with frightening regularity and decide there's no connection to another, or he'd be doing an incredibly bad job. 

Edited December 22, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge

[Cornelius_Fudge]

1 minute ago, Mr.Tease said:

Women and gay people are killed, raped, beaten in western countries too- racism, misogyny and homophobia is present in all societies, and bigots will use whoever crap to justify it, be religion,  ideology or whatever. 

Oh I see. So, you have statistics to prove that people in the USA for example have killed the same number of women, gays and apostates, as say, Iran or Egypt for example? 

And if there aren't comparable statistics, then ask yourself what the ideology is for the huge ratio imbalance. 

I would suggest you look at the website hrw.org too for answers. 

[Mr.Tease]

36 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Oh I see. So, you have statistics to prove that people in the USA for example have killed the same number of women, gays and apostates, as say, Iran or Egypt for example? 

And if there aren't comparable statistics, then ask yourself what the ideology is for the huge ratio imbalance. 

I would suggest you look at the website hrw.org too for answers. 

I work with survivors of rape and sexual abuse, and domestic violence, children and adults (the vast majority of which goes unreported or unprosecuted).  you'd quickly lose your delusions of things being just fine and dandy in this country if you did likewise 

Edited December 22, 2016 by Mr.Tease

[Cornelius_Fudge]

26 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

I work with survivors of rape and sexual abuse, and domestic violence, children and adults (the vast majority of which goes unreported or unprosecuted).  you'd quickly lose your delusions of things being just fine and dandy in this country if you did likewise 

I never said those things didn't happen in western countries, did I? Not once, but you've just completely reimagined what I've said. When did I even say everything was fine and dandy for example? 

First, you think your anecdotal evidence is a better view of the world than that of the human rights website I just showed you? I can only assume you do because you've ignored my question. 

Secondly, do you think that all culture is equally valuable and good? 

Thirdly, you're doing a really well intentioned and important job and I applaud you for it. It's sad that so cases don't get reported, but that's coming from a country where we're still perspectively doing more to help victims of rape than a lot of countries on the human rights watch website I mentioned. 

Edited December 22, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge

[Mr.Tease]

45 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

I never said those things didn't happen in western countries, did I? Not once, but you've just completely reimagined what I've said. When did I even say everything was fine and dandy for example? 

First, you think your anecdotal evidence is a better view of the world than that of the human rights website I just showed you? I can only assume you do because you've ignored my question. 

Secondly, do you think that all culture is equally valuable and good? 

Thirdly, you're doing a really well intentioned and important job and I applaud you for it. It's sad that so cases don't get reported, but that's coming from a country where we're still perspectively doing more to help victims of rape than a lot of countries on the human rights watch website I mentioned. 

You're making out Muslims are homogeneous, inferior and savage, (despite you probably not even knowing a single person who's a muslim) - shall I generalise?

The wonderful, civilised Christian West brought us slavery, colonialism, the holocaust, and racial segregation. In the UK it was legal to rape your wife until the 80s. Did people do all that because of Christianity? Bigotry and abuse transcends culture and religion - abusive people use whatever to justify their abuse. 

A lot of middle Eastern regimes are horrific but most of them came to power thanks to Western interventions and are proped up by the West for financial and strategic reasons- we sell weapons to Saudi Arabia,  for f***s sake. 

Do you even know any Muslims or do you just like to sit at home and imagine what they are all like? Half of my family are Muslims, I find your insinuations idiotic

Edited December 22, 2016 by Mr.Tease

[Cornelius_Fudge]

2 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

You're making out Muslims are homogeneous, inferior and savage, (despite you probably not even knowing a single person who's a muslim) - shall I generalise?

The wonderful, civilised Christian West brought us slavery, colonialism, the holocaust, and racial segregation. In the UK it was legal to rape your wife until the 80s. Did people do all that because of Christianity? Bigotry and abuse transcends culture and religion - abusive people use whatever to justify their abuse. 

A lot of middle Eastern regimes are horrific but most of them came to power thanks to Western interventions and are proped up by the West for financial and strategic reasons- we sell weapons to Saudi Arabia,  for f***s sake. 

Do you even know any Muslims or do you just like to sit at home and imagine what they are all like? Half of my family are Muslims, I find your insinuations idiotic

Fucking hell. I've not said anything remotely like what you're making out. 

I'll say it again, altho I'm not sure if it'll sink in this time, but I've not said all Muslims are the same.

You could find me the evidence to support your claim that western and middle eastern societies have a comparable rape, gay hate crime, or apostasy death rate like you did earlier perhaps? 

Yes, things are not all rosy and lovely in the UK or Germany, but when two opposing cultures collide, you're seeing what happens.

Thats another fallacy - that only people who have first hand experience of something are allowed to speak or know what it feels like. I don't need to be raped or be thrown off of a building just because of my sexuality, to know that it would be horrible. 

You're history books will tell you that slavery was also heavily dealt with by the middle east, but to say the Christian West invented all slavery is just incorrect. Which country used their power to stop the slave trade though? Also, all the things you mention happened in Africa and Asia as well, Japanese colonialism, African warlords, mass slaughters. To think only Europe has done those bad things is false. 

All the governments in the middle east have been put in place by Western nations? Huh? I suppose you think the US and France etc gets to choose all their laws and wrote the Hadith as well? 

And I don't know anything about your family and haven't mentioned them, so again, what!? But yes I do know Muslims, but they're British born and drink and have girlfriends out of marriage, something they realise they couldn't do in more orthodox countries. 

Edited December 22, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge

[Ommadawn]

Although there's many places on the Internet where a simple question of whether Angela Merkel is partly responsible for the atrocity that happened in Germany earlier this week can descend into an argument about race, I wouldn't have expected this to be one of them.

Those who mentioned the skin colour of the refugees really ought to be ashamed of themselves and maybe question their own attitude to race and whether they are fit to post on any forum - let alone a Glastonbury forum. Surely, the question is valid regardless of the colour of a persons skin.

It seems to me that the general consensus of this thread is that the undoubted need of the refugees outweighs the requirement of the Government to keep the existing population safe. Whilst I accept that only a tiny proportion pose a possible threat to the existing population, I still feel there may be a valid argument that Angela Merkel has failed in her responsibility (while also completely understanding the reasons why she made the decision she did). I read this evening (from unsubstantiated sources) that Germany is tracking over 5000 potential terrorists - many of whom have entered the country as refugees. If true, is this a price worth paying? If you think it is, would you be prepared to make that argument to the relatives of the people who were killed or injured in this weeks atrocity?       

Edited December 23, 2016 by Ommadawn

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

FFS. Are you seriously ignoring the problem to this extent?

12 people have just died and you think the only thing that connects them is their skin colour. Startling.

You might have seen on the news yesterday that 4 people died in a lorry crash in the UK, because 2 white british people didn't give a shit about killing other brits. Are you ignoring the extent of the white british problem?

How about damning all Catholics because of (what was essentially) the religious war in Ireland?

The training manuals of ISIS and others have been seen, and your reaction is precisely what they want. You might as well be planting their bombs for them.

And then there's your cultural imperialism, that has you blind and feeling (but not being) superior to so very much.

Wake the fuck up, please.

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

I've not said once that this applies to all Muslims

But you have said that the right reaction to a minor but terrible problem is to treat all Muslims with suspicion.

Care to explain to me how you're not labelling *all* Muslims a problem, again?