Thoughts go out to those in Berlin

[guypjfreak]

No matter your political standing it's a terrible thing that has happened.. 

Rip to those who were looking forward to a nice Xmas in a few days.......... It's fucking madness... 

[OG]

Still unsure if it's a terrorist attack or accident at the moment. Hopefully a terrible accident

[eFestivals]

While there's been endless stuff on TV about Berlin and 'terrorism', there's been barely a mention of the shooting of 3 Muslims in a mosque in Switzerland and certainly no mention of 'terrorism' - despite it looking like an attempt to terrorise the Muslims in Europe.

And then Europe wonders why som4e might say it has double standards.

 

 

[trevethin]

Just dreadful. I have no words ...

[baggienick68]

Hopefully was an accident but it has all the hallmarks of a terrorist attack. Just so fucking pointless.

[eFestivals]

 

[baggienick68]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

Beneath contempt.

[zahidf]

23 minutes ago, baggienick68 said:

Beneath contempt.

even worse

 Farage is a grade A c**t

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/20/nigel-farage-accuses-jo-cox-widower-brendan-cox-of-supporting-extremism

 

Hope not hate arent extremists. Whay a prick

Edited December 20, 2016 by zahidf

[Alex DeLarge]

Farage never misses an opportunity to make it about himself the slippery worm.

Back to the attacks, I feel terrible thinking about what's happened, I can't register the fact a family or a group friends could happily be spending some time near the holiday's together, treating themselves, laughing, bickering as loved ones do, treating the day like any other when something so unspeakably terrible happens. My heart breaks for them.

[guypjfreak]

Fuck the politics he's a dick.. Sad to find that the driver was murdered as well and now they don't even know where the people who did it are..... All the politicians are arse holes imo 

[Ommadawn]

12 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

 

12 hours ago, baggienick68 said:

Beneath contempt.

Well, maybe playing The Devil's Advocate a bit here but if the person driving the lorry turned out to be one of the 1 million migrants allowed into Germany by Merkel, doesn't she bear some responsibility?

Having said that, it's an awful thing to have happened at any time but particularly just before Christmas. My thoughts are with all those touched by this event.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Ommadawn

[OG]

1 hour ago, Ommadawn said:

 

Well, maybe playing The Devil's Advocate a bit here but if the person driving the lorry turned out to be one of the 1 million migrants allowed into Germany by Merkel, doesn't she bear some responsibility?

Having said that, it's an awful thing to have happened at any time but particularly just before Christmas. My thoughts are with all those touched by this event.

What a stupid fucking comment 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

5 hours ago, OG said:

What a stupid fucking comment 

It's a completely justified comment.

[Ommadawn]

5 hours ago, OG said:

What a stupid fucking comment 

Why do you think so. The primary duty of any head of state is to keep the population safe. By allowing so many people into Germany in such a sort space of time that adequate checks couldn't be made on every one of them, and again assuming one of these people was the driver of the lorry, it could be argued that she failed in that duty and therefore must accept some responsibility for what happened.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Ommadawn

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

 

Well, maybe playing The Devil's Advocate a bit here but if the person driving the lorry turned out to be one of the 1 million migrants allowed into Germany by Merkel, doesn't she bear some responsibility?

Having said that, it's an awful thing to have happened at any time but particularly just before Christmas. My thoughts are with all those touched by this event.

If Merkel carries some responsibility for the deaths in Berlin, then Farage also carries some responsibility for the death of Jo Cox.

I'm not particularly bothered whether people say politicians carry responsibility for the deaths off the back of their words and actions or not, tho I do think those not being consistent in handing out blame are the arseholes.

Either both Merkel and Farage have blood on their hands, or neither of them do.

Edited December 21, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

Why do you think so. The primary duty of any head of state is to keep the population safe. By allowing so many people into Germany in such a sort space of time that adequate checks couldn't be made on every one of them, and again assuming one of these people was the driver of the lorry, it could be argued that she failed in that duty and therefore must accept some responsibility for what happened.

And yet Germany allows Brits to fly into Germany with no checks at all.

Here's betting that you don't consider your own ability to arrive in Germany unchecked as the same failing by Merkel, despite it being the same thing by Merkel.

It could be argued that some people are self-serving inconsistent c**ts, just as much as the arguments you're making.

[eFestivals]

27 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

The primary duty of any head of state is to keep the population safe.

I don't disagree with that, tho it needs pointing out there's more than one version of 'safe'.

Like, for example, how 'safe' Germany's very-aging population would be without an adequate workforce to fund their retirement.

Or like, for example, whether they're safer by welcoming Muslims and perhaps suffering the occasional bad consequence than they might be by treating all Muslim's as potential terrorists - which carries no guarantee of better safety, don't forget.

The UK didn't open its doors to the same people and had a much bigger 'Islamic terrorist' attack. The UK didn't open its doors to the same people and didn't need to to suffer that attack, same for France and Belgium too.

Meanwhile ISIS want you to hate Muslims and treat them as sub-standard, it's their greatest wish. Why not help them make some bombs, too?

Edited December 21, 2016 by eFestivals

[zahidf]

No one knows if it was a refugee yet of course. the original person arressted was done so incorrectly.

Doesnt stop the Sun, Farage, usual barrel of twats assuming it was of course.

[stuartbert two hats]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

If Merkel carries some responsibility for the deaths in Berlin, then Farage also carries some responsibility for the death of Jo Cox.

I'm not particularly bothered whether people say politicians carry responsibility for the deaths off the back of their words and actions or not, tho I do think those not being consistent in handing out blame are the arseholes.

Either both Merkel and Farage have blood on their hands, or neither of them do.

I follow your reasoning, but it's not necessarily inconsistent to take the position that only one of them bears responsibility for the attacks in question.  It's possible to take the positions that politicians do hold responsibility for such things, but that the particulars of each case leaves either Farage or Merkel with no responsibility.  They are, after all quite different situations, even if they do appear to be two sides of the same coin vis-à-vis border control.  

It's only if you're saying that as a general principle that one or the other shouldn't be held responsible for these kinds of attacks that you start to get into double standards territory.

Of course, it's equally consistent to take the position that they are both responsible 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

it's equally consistent to take the position that they are both responsible 

That's my point.

They either both hold some responsibility, or neither do.

Neither of them carried out the act themselves, tho both can be linked to the acts indirectly via their actions. If the 'indirectly' means anything it means exactly the same thing for both - that their actions helped bring about the action of another.

Me, I prefer the idea of sovereign human beings solely responsible for what they choose to do, but for anyone that likes the idea of that indirect responsibility, please make sure you serve yourself up with this...

[No Cars Go]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I don't disagree with that, tho it needs pointing out there's more than one version of 'safe'.

Like, for example, how 'safe' Germany's very-aging population would be without an adequate workforce to fund their retirement.

Or like, for example, whether they're safer by welcoming Muslims and perhaps suffering the occasional bad consequence than they might be by treating all Muslim's as potential terrorists - which carries no guarantee of better safety, don't forget.

The UK didn't open its doors to the same people and had a much bigger 'Islamic terrorist' attack. The UK didn't open its doors to the same people and didn't need to to suffer that attack, same for France and Belgium too.

Meanwhile ISIS want you to hate Muslims and treat them as sub-standard, it's their greatest wish. Why not help them make some bombs, too?

Spot on Neil!

[eFestivals]

35 minutes ago, No Cars Go said:

Spot on Neil!

I'll just add that in the not-too-distant past there was a greater proportion of terrorists amongst the population of the island of Ireland than there is amongst the worldwide population of Muslims.

And there's very definitely a greater proportion of paedos amongst white British males than there are terrorists amongst Muslims.

Would we treat everyone from either of those groups (Irish, & white British male) as definitely-suspect in the manner that some suggest we should treat all Muslims? I think not.

It's unfortunate that there's bad people in the world, but the right response is always a rational and proportionate response. 

Now is the season of goodwill to all men (and women). Let's do it.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

And yet Germany allows Brits to fly into Germany with no checks at all.

Here's betting that you don't consider your own ability to arrive in Germany unchecked as the same failing by Merkel, despite it being the same thing by Merkel.

It could be argued that some people are self-serving inconsistent c**ts, just as much as the arguments you're making.

Yes, but we as a people and country have gained that right, although we still get checked at security when we enter, although not usually afterwards. When countries prove over long periods that they have a peaceful and well meaning society, then that's how it should be right? But it's different to throw your arms open to an area with a long and clear track record of harbouring/producing large numbers of radical thinkers and terrorists.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

3 hours ago, zahidf said:

No one knows if it was a refugee yet of course. the original person arressted was done so incorrectly.

Doesnt stop the Sun, Farage, usual barrel of twats assuming it was of course.

Although we shouldn't cast assertions without the facts, what would your guess be? A disgruntled Chinese woman? An elderly man from Wisconsin?

We all make assumptions every day. It's perfectly reasonable for them to make assumptions. It's their job after all to predict future events and decide what's best for the country and people based on those assumptions.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

That's my point.

They either both hold some responsibility, or neither do.

Neither of them carried out the act themselves, tho both can be linked to the acts indirectly via their actions. If the 'indirectly' means anything it means exactly the same thing for both - that their actions helped bring about the action of another.

Me, I prefer the idea of sovereign human beings solely responsible for what they choose to do, but for anyone that likes the idea of that indirect responsibility, please make sure you serve yourself up with this...

Although they have both enabled something, they have done so in different ways. Farage knew he was scaring people. Merkel was just naive.