This morning...

[The Nal]

Nice post STH. 

Bill Maher also speaking similar on the "not my president" thing

[Mardy]

18 minutes ago, The Nal said:

Nice post STH. 

Bill Maher also speaking similar on the "not my president" thing

Bill Maher has been tremendous throughout the campaign. 'Real Time' has been essential viewing/listening. 

[Alex DeLarge]

49 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Over the last few day and months I've been thinking a lot about the seeming chasm that has made itself starkly evident in the western world because of the narrow, but real victories of Brexit and Trump.  Although there has always been "left and right" or "liberals and conservatives", the sheer gap in comprehension between the two sides seems larger than ever.  Despite being very different in subject matter, there appear to be clear parallels between the EU Referendum and the US Elections in the inability of the two sides from being able to communicate.

I've attempted to distil these thoughts down to a few bullet points on what might and might not be helpful behaviour.  Apologies for all the "quotation marks"

 

What won't help:

• Calling everyone who voted for Brexit or Trump a stupid bigot.
• Arguing endlessly with each other about exactly how bad things are.
• Burying your head in the sand and crying about things that are going to happen.
• Calling anyone stupid.  It's cathartic, but ultimately destructive behaviour.

Got to be said, I disagree with the narrative that's been cultivated that the nasty liberals are the cause of Trump and Brexit. Sure, there have been insults from liberals in the past, but Trump got enough attention to become President by playing nasty and insulting others. In many ways the anti-Trump and Remain debates were unwinnable to the narrative the nasty liberal elite hates you and this feeling of 'it's our fault because of insults' is helping the right in the long term.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Got to be said, I disagree with the narrative that's been cultivated that the nasty liberals are the cause of Trump and Brexit. Sure, there have been insults from liberals in the past, but Trump got enough attention to become President by playing nasty and insulting others. In many ways the anti-Trump and Remain debates were unwinnable to the narrative the nasty liberal elite hates you and this feeling of 'it's our fault because of insults' is helping the right in the long term.

What helps the right long term is giving those on the right who might want to change sides nowhere to go.

If everyone on 'the right' is labelled as an irredeemable racist by 'the left', those people won't be listening to anything of 'the left', and nor will they side with 'the left'.

And if the 'the left' is to again become the majority, it very definitely needs some on 'the right' to swap sides. Writing them all off is 'the left' writing itself off.

[Alex DeLarge]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

What helps the right long term is giving those on the right who might want to change sides nowhere to go.

If everyone on 'the right' is labelled as an irredeemable racist by 'the left', those people won't be listening to anything of 'the left', and nor will they side with 'the left'.

Sorry if my post was unclear, I agree with you Neil but it feels like people are saying that all remain voters/ anti-Trump people believe everyone who voted for Brexit/ Trump is racist. Anecdotally I didn't see much of that at all, it's a bit unfair to generalise everyone on the left as snobby as insulting just as it is to label everyone who voted a certain way racist.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Alex DeLarge
Can't get my words out today...

[stuartbert two hats]

16 minutes ago, The Nal said:

Nice post STH. 

Bill Maher also speaking similar on the "not my president" thing

He's talking about some of the same ideas, but is still using the accusatory tone that Stewart's video has inspired me to try to get beyond.  

The political correctness point is interesting, one I recognise.  I personally think it's very important to be considerate, respectful and empathetic, but even I'm finding the discourse exhausting.  Even though I agree that as a member of that elite group - a white, western, male heterosexual,  I have limits to my perspective, I'm not sure that calls to "check your privilege" or accusations of  "mansplaining" are particularly productive, despite any underlying truth in those rallying calls.  They may often be used is response to an uninformed point, but are not productive - they shut down debate, which doesn't help anyone.

But ultimately, Maher is just bashing the left/liberals, and bashing anyone can only go so far.

4 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Got to be said, I disagree with the narrative that's been cultivated that the nasty liberals are the cause of Trump and Brexit. Sure, there have been insults from liberals in the past, but Trump got enough attention to become President by playing nasty and insulting others. In many ways the anti-Trump and Remain debates were unwinnable to the narrative the nasty liberal elite hates you and this feeling of 'it's our fault because of insults' is helping the right in the long term.

Nor do I, but I'm trying to take the utilitarianism approach.  I.e. I'm not interested in blame, just an examination of whether our actions are going to help or hinder the ultimate good.  In the end, it doesn't matter if Brexit and Trump votes were picked up because of stupidity or racism.  What does matter is whether accusing someone of being stupid or racism will result in a better outcome.

[stuartbert two hats]

4 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Sorry if my post was unclear, I agree with you Neil but it feels like people are saying that all remain voters/ anti-Trump people believe everyone who voted for Brexit/ Trump is racist. Anecdotally I didn't see much of that at all, it's a bit unfair to generalise everyone on the left as snobby as insulting just as it is to label everyone who voted a certain way racist.

I agree.  Which goes back to Stewart's video on treating people as monoliths, which is probably the most useful point in the debate so far.  

EDIT:  I'm not so interested in what 'the left' has done.  I'm interested in what I can do, or stop doing. We need to drop the accusatory tone towards the 'other side' and each other if we have any chance of moving forwards.

Edited November 18, 2016 by stuartbert two hats

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Sorry if my post was unclear, I agree with you Neil but it feels like everyone is saying everyone who voted for Brexit is racist, anecdotally I didn't see much of that at all, it's a bit unfair to generalise everyone on the left as snobby as insulting just as it is to label everyone who voted a certain way racist.

The short explanation is that the same geezer posting here about how all Trumpers are deliberate racists also posted the same about brexiters in another topic on these forums, plus of course there's all the narrative that says they're about much the same thing for many people - a feeling of disempowerment - and that inevitably gets referenced.

 

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Nor do I, but I'm trying to take the utilitarianism approach.  I.e. I'm not interested in blame, just an examination of whether our actions are going to help or hinder the ultimate good.  In the end, it doesn't matter if Brexit and Trump votes were picked up because of stupidity or racism.  What does matter is whether accusing someone of being stupid or racism will result in a better outcome.

This.

The only way back for 'the left' is by making friends with these people, and showing them that 'the left' is reasonable, is listening, and willing to act towards their concerns rather than pay lip-service.

[zahidf]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

This.

The only way back for 'the left' is by making friends with these people, and showing them that 'the left' is reasonable, is listening, and willing to act towards their concerns rather than pay lip-service.

It goes both ways you know. Brexit fans call people who disagree with them 'Remoaners' and judges as 'Enemies of the people'. Oh and us of 'Of talking the country down'. When we say facts about economics and judges use the law correctly.

 

Trump fans catchphrase is 'Get over it, you lost' and im sure more will come out in the following months when things go to crap.

 

So a nice sentiment, but the other side need to not be sore winners and accept that mistakes were made with their actions

[zahidf]

Proposed new US Attorney Gen hates gays, women and flag burning.

And he also called a white lawyer a “disgrace to his race” for representing a black client.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Domestic/Jeff_Sessions_Civil_Rights.htm

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

It goes both ways you know. Brexit fans call people who disagree with them 'Remoaners' and judges as 'Enemies of the people'. Oh and us of 'Of talking the country down'. When we say facts about economics and judges use the law correctly.

 

Trump fans catchphrase is 'Get over it, you lost' and im sure more will come out in the following months when things go to crap.

 

So a nice sentiment, but the other side need to not be sore winners and accept that mistakes were made with their actions

Some people are never going to be convinced.

Plus of course for all the time some people are making huge over-reactions, they're not really in the place to criticise others for making huge over-reactions.

That's the sort of unreasonable I'm on about. We need more sense, not less.

Like it or not, some people feel they've been on the end of 'get over it, you lost' for too long, so it's hardly a surprise they might indulge in some back. 

And if mistakes were made by the terribly-flawed side that won, just think how big the mistakes and flaws of the side that lost. Learn from it.

We only get the more-equal world I presume you want if you're prepared to stop the polarisation. It's necessary from you just as much as it is from anyone on the other side. It takes two. 

Now is the time 'the left' has to prove it really is what it claims of itself.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Proposed new US Attorney Gen hates gays, women and flag burning.

And he also called a white lawyer a “disgrace to his race” for representing a black client.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Domestic/Jeff_Sessions_Civil_Rights.htm

He will only get that role if confirmed by the senate. If it gets the role the blame can't only be laid on Trump.

[stuartbert two hats]

14 minutes ago, zahidf said:

It goes both ways you know. Brexit fans call people who disagree with them 'Remoaners' and judges as 'Enemies of the people'. Oh and us of 'Of talking the country down'. When we say facts about economics and judges use the law correctly.

 

Trump fans catchphrase is 'Get over it, you lost' and im sure more will come out in the following months when things go to crap.

 

So a nice sentiment, but the other side need to not be sore winners and accept that mistakes were made with their actions

That may be true, but given that neither you or I are part of 'the other side', what can we best do to ensure the best outcome?  How can we best mitigate the situation we find ourselves in? If we accept that 'the other side' need to accept that mistakes were made, what's the best way to go about achieving that end?  Is simply stating that they should accept it the best way forward?  Ore do we need to employ more sophisticated methods, perhaps more devious or more empathetic? 

I don't know, I'm starting to feel that not thinking of every person who seems to disagree with us as being 'the other side' might be a good way to try to build a better future. 

I'm with you.  I'm terrified by what's going on. I've been blindsided a little and I'm a little bit ashamed that I've managed to reach a place where I'm so I'm so ill equipped to understand why other people may vote for things I deeply disagree with.  It's either they know something I don't, I know something they don't or - more likely - we both have differing knowledge and experiences that have led us to different conclusions and worldviews.  How can we rise above it?

[zahidf]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

He will only get that role if confirmed by the senate. If it gets the role the blame can't only be laid on Trump.

70/30 Trump/Senate blame. He is the one trying to appoint him!

[zahidf]

6 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

That may be true, but given that neither you or I are part of 'the other side', what can we best do to ensure the best outcome?  How can we best mitigate the situation we find ourselves in? If we accept that 'the other side' need to accept that mistakes were made, what's the best way to go about achieving that end?  Is simply stating that they should accept it the best way forward?  Ore do we need to employ more sophisticated methods, perhaps more devious or more empathetic? 

I don't know, I'm starting to feel that not thinking of every person who seems to disagree with us as being 'the other side' might be a good way to try to build a better future. 

I'm with you.  I'm terrified by what's going on. I've been blindsided a little and I'm a little bit ashamed that I've managed to reach a place where I'm so I'm so ill equipped to understand why other people may vote for things I deeply disagree with.  It's either they know something I don't, I know something they don't or - more likely - we both have differing knowledge and experiences that have led us to different conclusions and worldviews.  How can we rise above it?

Id love to, But on Brexit, the economic facts against it is so strong, i find it hard to see the LEAVE side. 

 

If it is 'cultural anxiety' caused by freedom of movement, i cant see a way forward. We wont have access to the single market without freedom of movement to a large degree. (some limits maybe, but harder to get those out of Europe!). And if there is an anxiety from ,say, white people who want their old standing in society back, that will be at the expense of other groups, who are already relatively downtrodden in comparision.

 

Equally, Trump is so obviously and manifestly awful on all levels, i find it hard to reconcile it. Maybe Trump voters are that desperate, but again, if it is culturally anxiety, the same issues as above arise. If it is economically, there is more than enough evidence that he would be worse for the wider economy than Clinton.

[stuartbert two hats]

11 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Id love to, But on Brexit, the economic facts against it is so strong, i find it hard to see the LEAVE side. 

 

If it is 'cultural anxiety' caused by freedom of movement, i cant see a way forward. We wont have access to the single market without freedom of movement to a large degree. (some limits maybe, but harder to get those out of Europe!). And if there is an anxiety from ,say, white people who want their old standing in society back, that will be at the expense of other groups, who are already relatively downtrodden in comparision.

 

Equally, Trump is so obviously and manifestly awful on all levels, i find it hard to reconcile it. Maybe Trump voters are that desperate, but again, if it is culturally anxiety, the same issues as above arise. If it is economically, there is more than enough evidence that he would be worse for the wider economy than Clinton.

This may seem like a facetious question, but it's not intended as one, but have you asked them?  I don't mean on-line, I mean face-to-face, have you asked a Brexiter or a Trump voter why they voted the way they did?  I've not and I intend to remedy that.  Maybe you are right and they're wrong, but it's still worth hearing them out - I find that people are most receptive when they're being listened to.

This may seem really fluffy what I'm saying, but it's not.  It's hard, it's really, really hard.  I'm struggling to comprehend what's happened, they must all be mad and selfish and evil and stupid mustn't they?  I don't want to hear bile vented about immigrants or even worse, but engaging with them seems like the only option left.  I don't really want to have conversations about 'national identity' or some such, since I think it's all bollocks and petty - BUT - there are so many of them.  I have to listen to understand what's really happened and to work out what can be done.  I'm not looking forward to it, but I have to do it.

Edited November 18, 2016 by stuartbert two hats

[SwedgeAntilles]

Vote Stuartbert, Two is his middle name 

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Id love to, But on Brexit, the economic facts against it is so strong, i find it hard to see the LEAVE side. 

There are arguments aside from the overall economics of it - immigration, sovereignty, freedom to set tax rates, freedom to nationalise, the freedom to cut trade deals with places the EU doesn't have deals but where the UK might urgently want them, etc, etc, etc.

It's simply a matter of how a person weights the importance of each factor, and whether those factors outweigh the percieved benefits.

It's not evil, it's not (necessarily) driven by stupidity or ignorance, it's just a difference of opinion about what the best and worst things are and how good and bad they are.

On last night's question time, someone suggested that when brexit is looked back on 100 years from now, it'll be viewed as some fairly minor changes to our trading arrangements, and i don't think that necessarily wrong. It might be economically negative but it's not going to kill us.

 

[zahidf]

8 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

This may seem like a facetious question, but it's not intended as one, but have you asked them?  I don't mean on-line, I mean face-to-face, have you asked a Brexiter or a Trump voter why they voted the way they did?  I've not and I intend to remedy that.  Maybe you are right and they're wrong, but it's still worth hearing them out - I find that people are most receptive when they're being listened to.

This may seem really fluffy what I'm saying, but it's not.  It's hard, it's really, really hard.  I'm struggling to comprehend what's happened, they must all be mad and selfish and evil and stupid mustn't they?  I don't want to hear bile vented about immigrants or even worse, but engaging with them seems like the only option left.  I don't really want to have conversations about 'national identity' or some such, since I think it's all bollocks and petty - BUT - there are so many of them.  I have to listen to understand what's really happened and to work out what can be done.  I'm not looking forward to it, but I have to do it.

My only contact with Trump voters are online, and they all seem as above.

Brexit, i know 5 people who voted to leave.

Two (A couple) did it because they think the EU are a front for the illumanati to take over the world for the new world order. They are david icke fans.

One old lady did it because there is too much immigration

One is pro Europe but voted to LEAVE so we could get a better deal with them to stay (He was the most sheepish post vote)

One did it so we can get back our laws. Acknowledged there would be an economic downside at least. Couldnt answer my simple question as to what specific laws have been passed which have been negative for the UK rather than positive mind.

I do live in London though, where Zac goldsmiths racist campaign lost, so i assume a lot less based on immigration than hartlepool say

[russycarps]

The trump support is easily understood. Some people just dont care that much about muslims and gays, caring more about themselves and their families.

In an ideal world almost all people would go for equality. But if it's a choice between some people being more equal at the expense of others, then it's a simple decision to make. 

Being selfish is the more natural human condition. Survival of the fittest and all that. If anything, "the right" are right, and we on the left are wrong. It's quite an unpleasant thought really.

 

 

 

 

 

[The Nal]

10 minutes ago, zahidf said:

My only contact with Trump voters are online, and they all seem as above.

You'll never understand it in that case. 

[Untz]

24 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

This may seem really fluffy what I'm saying, but it's not.  It's hard, it's really, really hard.  I'm struggling to comprehend what's happened, they must all be mad and selfish and evil and stupid mustn't they?  I don't want to hear bile vented about immigrants or even worse, but engaging with them seems like the only option left.  I don't really want to have conversations about 'national identity' or some such, since I think it's all bollocks and petty - BUT - there are so many of them.  I have to listen to understand what's really happened and to work out what can be done.  I'm not looking forward to it, but I have to do it.

Can you not even think of any reason why someone might vote differently? Surely you don't think one side is 100% right and 100% wrong?

Personally, I find it hard to understand how some people were so pro/anti of any side. For Brexit, most people I knew were pretty borderline and reluctant voters for whichever way they went. Generally, the people who were most strongly Remain (I didn't know anyone strongly Leave) were the ones who had a lot of strong beliefs that they didn't think through but had them because they were the "correct" ones (not saying the same of you - just showing how people's experiences can be different). I was more surprised by the public reaction to the Brexit vote than the result itself. I also saw the Trump result a mile off too.

I don't think people expose themselves to people or media that express different ideas from them often enough. It's nice and comfy in the echo chamber, but it's not good for politics overall. I try to read a variety of viewpoints, but I think everybody is wrong anyway though.

[russycarps]

17 minutes ago, Untz said:

Can you not even think of any reason why someone might vote differently? Surely you don't think one side is 100% right and 100% wrong?

Personally, I find it hard to understand how some people were so pro/anti of any side. For Brexit, most people I knew were pretty borderline and reluctant voters for whichever way they went. Generally, the people who were most strongly Remain (I didn't know anyone strongly Leave) were the ones who had a lot of strong beliefs that they didn't think through but had them because they were the "correct" ones (not saying the same of you - just showing how people's experiences can be different). I was more surprised by the public reaction to the Brexit vote than the result itself. I also saw the Trump result a mile off too.

I don't think people expose themselves to people or media that express different ideas from them often enough. It's nice and comfy in the echo chamber, but it's not good for politics overall. I try to read a variety of viewpoints, but I think everybody is wrong anyway though.

Most of the strong Remainers I spoke to were worried they'd lose their job. It's as simple as that. Selfish.

 

[stuartbert two hats]

22 minutes ago, Untz said:

Can you not even think of any reason why someone might vote differently? Surely you don't think one side is 100% right and 100% wrong?

Personally, I find it hard to understand how some people were so pro/anti of any side. For Brexit, most people I knew were pretty borderline and reluctant voters for whichever way they went. Generally, the people who were most strongly Remain (I didn't know anyone strongly Leave) were the ones who had a lot of strong beliefs that they didn't think through but had them because they were the "correct" ones (not saying the same of you - just showing how people's experiences can be different). I was more surprised by the public reaction to the Brexit vote than the result itself. I also saw the Trump result a mile off too.

I don't think people expose themselves to people or media that express different ideas from them often enough. It's nice and comfy in the echo chamber, but it's not good for politics overall. I try to read a variety of viewpoints, but I think everybody is wrong anyway though.

I can think of reasons, but I want to hear them from the people who decided the other way.