This morning...

[eFestivals]

21 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

And my comments were about the state of America in 2016 which is an outlier amongst Western countries on many metrics of a civilised society - none of which the Republicans ever cares about improving. 

an alternative, less apocalyptic version.

 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

10 hours ago, Alex DeLarge said:

I love the cushioning of Trump's statements as 'being Conservative' or 'disagreeing with them'! Trump has said he'll increase stop and frisk which will disproportionately affect African-Americans and he constantly posts false crime statistics about African-Americans in graphics created by white supremacists. He's specifically targeting Muslims in his 'immigration policy'. A Conservative immigration policy is something like Australia where it's equally hard for everyone to get in.  Trump is deliberately treating innocent people differently for their religious beliefs, in a policy which is nearly possible to enforce. What makes someone a Muslim? If they come from a Muslim family and practice all their lives yet on the day they're leaving for America suddenly convert? Will white, middle-class, British, liberal Muslims be banned?

It took me a while to find the video, but this is Louis Farrakhan where he specifically details that Trump is right to be cautious over Muslim immigration.

Louis Farrakhan happens to be the leader of the Nation of Islam that was founded in Detroit and he states quite clearly that it would be a 'wise' move to vet immigration/refugees from the Middle East/North Africa area.

But I suppose you think LF is also racist (despite Islam not being a race) against his own people/religious followers from the Middle East?
 

 

Edited November 11, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge
Forgot to add the link.

[Spindles]

1 hour ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

But I suppose you think LF is also racist

You might wanted to google the fella before quoting infowars.  Here's another quote from him for you:

“The Jews don’t like Farrakhan, so they call me Hitler. Well, that’s a good name. Hitler was a very great man.”

 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

3 minutes ago, Spindles said:

You might wanted to google the fella before quoting infowars.  Here's another quote from him for you:

 

 

 

Against his own Muslim 'brotherhood' is obviously the point here. The other quote is irrelevant. My point is that it's no coincidence that a high ranking leader of the Muslim community would also admit that it's right to heavily vet incoming immigrants/refugees.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge

[Alex DeLarge]

Forget this post, it was a rash and immature response.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Alex DeLarge

[Ommadawn]

I think Trump doesn't really want to do a lot of what he said he would do and will find he won't be able do a lot of what he does want to do. It looks like he's already backtracking on a number of issues (Obamacare for one) and will find he won't be able to run a country like he does a business.

Like Brexit, you can't really speculate on what may happen so soon after the event so our only option is to cross our fingers and wait and see .

Edited November 12, 2016 by Ommadawn

[Mr.Tease]

11 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Against his own Muslim 'brotherhood' is obviously the point here. The other quote is irrelevant. My point is that it's no coincidence that a high ranking leader of the Muslim community would also admit that it's right to heavily vet incoming immigrants/refugees.

You realise that not all muslims are the same don't you, and that there are different groups within it? And since when did 'because x said it and x is of that group, then it can't be discriminatory' become a reality?

Quote

People who hear for the first time about the ‘Nation of Islam’ (NOI) will immediately correlate it with Islam itself. However, these two religious sects are not to be considered one and the same. To people’s surprise, there are really many differences between the two.

http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-islam-and-the-nation-of-islam/#ixzz4PmbE5wZS

Your thinking reminds me of this:

 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Mr.Tease

[Cornelius_Fudge]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

You realise that not all muslims are the same don't you, and that there are different groups within it?

http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-islam-and-the-nation-of-islam/#ixzz4PmbE5wZS

 

Yes I know there are many diff groups? But what does that have to do with what he's saying? I used the blanket term 'brotherhood' because he didn't specifically mention whether it was violence coming from Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq etc. He just mentioned Syria. And he's right on that. The Alwaties have persecuted all other groups of Islam there for a long time.

The second point is irrelevant. No one calls themselves the Nation of Islam unless they believe in it. Are the true Muslims the ones from Saudi Arabia and Iran? Which one of those countries would you like to go live in?

Edited November 12, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge

[Mr.Tease]

Just now, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Yes I know that but what does that have to do with what he's saying?

Well I guess that explains why the NOI hasn't murdered so many women and homosexuals I guess.

Because non-muslims don't kill women and gay people I guess

[Cornelius_Fudge]

50 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Because non-muslims don't kill women and gay people I guess

Yes they do, but they don't do it regularly in the name of an ideology. Other examples would be Catholic priests who have systematically not only raped children through the years, but covered it up as well.

But to ignore the fact they happen way more often for paltry or little offense, is like you're burying your head in the sand.

You might like to quote funny videos you watched one time with fat Gav after the Utd-Arsenal game (and I love how easy it is to set up these people, but it's not very good as evidence for world events), but here is something from a website called Human Rights Watch.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2015/country-chapters/saudi-arabia

This is one snippet:

The Specialized Criminal Court, Saudi Arabia’s terrorism tribunal, sentenced prominent Eastern Province activist Fadhil al-Manasif to 15 years in prison, a 15-year ban on travel abroad, and a large fine on April 17 after it convicted him on charges that included “breaking allegiance with the ruler,” “contact with foreign news organizations to exaggerate the news,” and “circulating his phone number to [foreign] news agencies to allow them to call him.” The charges arose from al-Manasif’s assistance to international media covering the 2011 protests in Eastern Province.

Just because he 'broke allegiance' with the ruler. Their constitution is based on the Quran. Are these the real Muslims you mean?

Isn't it a legitamte fear that if you accept over a million people from countries like Afghanistan, Syria, Egypt etc where they've had horrible cases of human rights and/or terrorism, it's fair enough to vet them?

Edited November 12, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge

[slash's hat]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2016/11/10/im-a-muslim-a-woman-and-an-immigrant-i-voted-for-trump/?0p19G=c

[Alex DeLarge]

15 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

It took me a while to find the video, but this is Louis Farrakhan where he specifically details that Trump is right to be cautious over Muslim immigration.

Louis Farrakhan happens to be the leader of the Nation of Islam that was founded in Detroit and he states quite clearly that it would be a 'wise' move to vet immigration/refugees from the Middle East/North Africa area.

But I suppose you think LF is also racist (despite Islam not being a race) against his own people/religious followers from the Middle East?

Now that I've had some time to sleep on this...

There is a difference between being 'cautious of Muslim migration' and and entire banning of Muslims entering the United States. Again someone's cushioning Trump's words to make him sound better.

Just because one Muslim speaker agrees with vetting Muslims, it doesn't mean every single Muslim immigrant should be treated with caution. America's biggest problem is mass shootings yet Trump has promised to remove gun-free zones at schools, he doesn't care about safety, more just criticising Islam.

Thirldy, disregarding the slightly patronising 'but I suppose you think they're racist to themselves!' Yes, Islam is not a race, but Muslims who enter the US are mainly from the Middle East. This drives fear and generalisation of all Middle Eastern people and may cause an increase in radicilaization. If you can see how working class, white Americans will turn against liberal ideals because they don't help their financial situation, imagine a young Muslim who experiences hate crimes due to Trump's rhetoric and internalises the fact many people despise him for his religion. Who do you think he's going to turn to?

[Cornelius_Fudge]

6 hours ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Now that I've had some time to sleep on this...

There is a difference between being 'cautious of Muslim migration' and and entire banning of Muslims entering the United States. Again someone's cushioning Trump's words to make him sound better.

Just because one Muslim speaker agrees with vetting Muslims, it doesn't mean every single Muslim immigrant should be treated with caution. America's biggest problem is mass shootings yet Trump has promised to remove gun-free zones at schools, he doesn't care about safety, more just criticising Islam.

Thirldy, disregarding the slightly patronising 'but I suppose you think they're racist to themselves!' Yes, Islam is not a race, but Muslims who enter the US are mainly from the Middle East. This drives fear and generalisation of all Middle Eastern people and may cause an increase in radicilaization. If you can see how working class, white Americans will turn against liberal ideals because they don't help their financial situation, imagine a young Muslim who experiences hate crimes due to Trump's rhetoric and internalises the fact many people despise him for his religion. Who do you think he's going to turn to?

I think there's a difference between the Muslims already in the US and who grew up there, surrounded by western values like freedom of speech, freedom for women and homosexuals and a sudden influx of immigrants/refugees that come from countries that don't share those values. And we've seen evidence of this in countries all over Europe. Sweden has skyrocketed to the rape capital of the world and not to mention Cologne and all the other terrorist attacks that have happened - although admittedly not all have been committed by immigrants or refugees - what is the one thing that unites them all?

He said that nonsense about banning all Muslims months ago and he's already backtracked on an outright ban of all Muslims, and I still don't think it's racist to be cautious over this. I would prefer to be safer than sorry. He just said that to get noticed, to get his face out there and take attention away from other candidates, but vetting or being cautious are not racist or bad things.

Yes, maybe it was a little bit patronizing in retrospect but I wasn't thinking about that at the time - more just the sentiment of what I was saying. Unless it sounds more patronizing over the web than in speech, but unless I meet you and ask it again, we'd never know

[Alex DeLarge]

Just now, Cornelius_Fudge said:

I think there's a difference between the Muslims already in the US and who grew up there, surrounded by western values like freedom of speech, freedom for women and homosexuals and a sudden influx of immigrants/refugees that come from countries that don't share those values. And we've seen evidence of this in countries all over Europe. Sweden has skyrocketed to the rape capital of the world and not to mention Cologne and all the other terrorist attacks that have happened - although admittedly not all have been committed by immigrants or refugees - what is the one thing that unites them all?

He said that nonsense about banning all Muslims months ago and he's already backtracked on an outright ban of all Muslims, and I still don't think it's racist to be cautious over this. I would prefer to be safer than sorry. He just said that to get noticed, to get his face out there and take attention away from other candidates, but vetting or being cautious are not racist or bad things.

Yes, maybe it was a little bit patronizing in retrospect but I wasn't thinking about that at the time - more just the sentiment of what I was saying. Unless it sounds more patronizing over the web than in speech, but unless I meet you and ask it again, we'd never know

Yeah, I'd agree with the fact there is a difference. The issue is then though Trump wants to increase surveillance of Mosques of Muslim American's already living there. He may have only been saying it to get his attention, but his supporters will internalise those views and begin to act differently around innocent Muslims.

As for the patronising thing, tone is really hard to get right over internet debates, maybe I read it differently to your intention. I didn't mean to actually argue with you over this haha. 

[bamber]

First, let's not conflate accusations of stupidity with accusations of racism, The two are far from synonymous. There are many examples of historical figures, who were by any demonstrable measure intelligent, who where also racist.This is a sad truth. I should not have to explain it. But all Trump voters were not out and out racist, but were demonstrably stupid. Let me demonstrate that.....

Second though, before that. let me say this, There seem to be many on here who say that Trump will moderate now, seek council, and end up being like any other Republican.  I earnestly, really hope that to be the case. It is the best possible outcome given the circumstances.

However,

House Speaker Paul Ryan (Republican) ripped Donald Trump's recent remarks saying a judge presiding over a lawsuit involving his business was biased because of his Mexican heritage as "the textbook definition of a racist comment."

I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.... Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.

The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive.

Maybe stupid is the wrong word. Misdirected maybe is better. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck,.. if it looks like stupid..... Just those three examples should be enough to question anyone who bought it. I honestly do not know anymore. I have no more remaining certitudes.

Except this....

 

Edited November 12, 2016 by bamber

[bamber]

I cry for that we have lost.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2016 by bamber

[bamber]

If I can say one thing with certainty this morning, it is that Americans are the world masters of the confused message.

 

 

[Homer]

On 11/10/2016 at 6:40 PM, Hugh Jass said:

When I get home the first thing I'm going to do is watch that video.

Cheers for the heads up guys. I'll prob grab a movie on the way home from work at the O2, so I'll check that out!

 

Have you been to the museum in the observatory? There's a good pic in there of Flavour Flav with a clock hanging around his neck as part of the exhibit!

Edited November 14, 2016 by Homer

[waterfalls212434]

Ok so, so far we have trump announcing hes planning to put in place a large scale `deportation force` to kick millions of immigrants out of the country,  his vice president Pence is a religious nutjob who believes gay people can be cured with electroshock treatment as well as having the opinion that abortion shouldn't even be allowed in the case of rape, (Who is probably there as an insurance policy because hey.....who`d get rid of trump knowing far worse would take his place?)

He`s just appointed Steve Bannon the ex editor of Brietbart the ultra right wing,conservative, at times white supremacist website as his senior policy adviser.....thats` a man who has admitted he and his website represented the alt right ( The alt-right, short for alternative right, “encompasses a range of people on the extreme right who reject mainstream conservatism in favour of forms of conservatism that embrace implicit or explicit racism or white supremacy,” ) and has made very many anti semantic comments towards Jews and other religious groups..

other then that? well the first politician he gave an audience to was Nigel farage the unelected political failure but mouthpiece of the uk far right, hes had messages of congrats from the kkk as well as far right leaders across europe, people like marine le pen etc pledging alliances and bigging up their cause as if trump is going to be the yardstick for them all.

but no hes not a bigot.....hes just a very naughty man!

`judge a man by the company he keeps`.......going by that saying america and the wider world is in for a rough time!

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by waterfalls212434

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, waterfalls212434 said:

 

Ok so, so far we have trump announcing hes planning to put in place a large scale `deportation force` to kick millions of immigrants out of the country,

 

I'll just point out that Obama had deported 2.5M by 2014, so is probably well over 3M by now, and that the UK also deports illegal immigrants.

I'm not trying to pretend Trump is good, but I'm pointing out that much of the stuff which is being flagged up as particularly evil is very standard stuff, and that if it had been a 'standard' republican that had won there'd be an amount of nasty stuff too.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Ok so, so far we have trump announcing hes planning to put in place a large scale `deportation force` to kick millions of immigrants out of the country,  his vice president Pence is a religious nutjob who believes gay people can be cured with electroshock treatment as well as having the opinion that abortion shouldn't even be allowed in the case of rape, (Who is probably there as an insurance policy because hey.....who`d get rid of trump knowing far worse would take his place?)

He`s just appointed Steve Bannon the ex editor of Brietbart the ultra right wing,conservative, at times white supremacist website as his senior policy adviser.....thats` a man who has admitted he and his website represented the alt right ( The alt-right, short for alternative right, “encompasses a range of people on the extreme right who reject mainstream conservatism in favour of forms of conservatism that embrace implicit or explicit racism or white supremacy,” ) and has made very many anti semantic comments towards Jews and other religious groups..

other then that? well the first politician he gave an audience to was Nigel farage the unelected political failure but mouthpiece of the uk far right, hes had messages of congrats from the kkk as well as far right leaders across europe, people like marine le pen etc pledging alliances and bigging up their cause as if trump is going to be the yardstick for them all.

but no hes not a bigot.....hes just a very naughty man!

`judge a man by the company he keeps`.......going by that saying america and the wider world is in for a rough time!

 

Gays can be converted? Standard republican.

Abortion shouldn't be allowed? Standard republican.

A preference for the established order? Standard republican.

A liking for nutty right wing news outlets and conspiracy theories? Standard republican.

Likes other right wing nutters? Standard republican.

Trump's not good and he might go (or at least, try to) a little further on some things than other republicans might, but it's not a huge change from the standard outcome for elections in the USA that you might think from some of the reporting.

[clarkete]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Gays can be converted? Standard republican.

Abortion shouldn't be allowed? Standard republican.

A preference for the established order? Standard republican.

A liking for nutty right wing news outlets and conspiracy theories? Standard republican.

Likes other right wing nutters? Standard republican.

Trump's not good and he might go (or at least, try to) a little further on some things than other republicans might, but it's not a huge change from the standard outcome for elections in the USA that you might think from some of the reporting.

Those views of course exist in their party,  but they don't usually all exist in the one person who is in power. 

Some recent Republicans seem touchy feely by comparison. 

[eFestivals]

40 minutes ago, clarkete said:

Those views of course exist in their party,  but they don't usually all exist in the one person who is in power. 

but, the point is, he's not the one and only person with power. He's not all powerful, able to do what he likes unhindered.

It's worth realising that the likes of Bernie would have been just as outrageous in the other direction for plenty of Americans, over-turning some aspects of 'the established order'.

I'm not trying to pretend that everything about Trump is 100% identical to standard republican, but he's much MUCH closer to being that than is is the Hitler-like figure that much of the reporting is suggesting.

I don't see the polarising narratives as anything helpful. All they do is ensure that there's only polarisation.

[grumpyhack]

I'm beginning to see both both Brexit and Trumping as a long-overdue wake up call to the established order who have significantly failed large parts of both the UK and US populations.

The biggest areas of Brexit and Trump voting came from people in largely deprived areas who felt let down or overlooked by the existing system.  It was a 'sod it, nothing can be worse than what we've had' vote.

Maybe time in opposition is necessary to allow the previous regimes to reflect on getting it right next time in order to return to power.  Let's just hope that not too much damage is done in the meantime.

[The Nal]

3 minutes ago, grumpyhack said:

I'm beginning to see both both Brexit and Trumping as a long-overdue wake up call to the established order who have significantly failed large parts of both the UK and US populations.

The biggest areas of Brexit and Trump voting came from people in largely deprived areas who felt let down or overlooked by the existing system.  It was a 'sod it, nothing can be worse than what we've had' vote.

Maybe time in opposition is necessary to allow the previous regimes to reflect on getting it right next time in order to return to power.  Let's just hope that not too much damage is done in the meantime.

Its years and years of high horse sanctimony, an over focus on left issues like poverty, LGBT equality, the environment etc while ignoring the "silent majority" as Nixon called them, the people who pay for everything.