Are we In or Out?

[6t6o6m]

I'm perform badly on forums, so I am unable to attach. But EE and ME have posted a picture on their Glastonbury Instagram saying they're in.

[SwedgeAntilles]

2 hours ago, wobble said:

Watch the Paxman show, it may explain it better than i can.

We can all have different opions, but when one starts acting the twat with FFS and laughing face(something you have previous for)they need pulling.

Like I said before I reckon you've been stuck on your arse a few times.

What's with all the different text formats in your posts? Every time you comment it resembles a ransom note.

[Hotchilidog]

I'm in. I am in because I believe in europe. I'm not entirely happy with a lot the EU does but I'd like us to be a part of changing it for the better. At the end of the day the EU that has brought in protections for workers, made free-movement easier and is in a position to help the environment ina way that indivudual nations cannot. All this is aside from the economic and business reasons for staying in.

My ex was from Switzerland and I know the country reasonably well, they are still subject to EU trade rules (with no influence over them), they have massive immigration levels (far higher than the UK). Being out of the EU is no panacea for some of the issues that the leave supporters want solving.

The leave campaign has not set out what a post-brexit britain would look like, but Johnson, Gove, and farage are no friends of workers, women, the environment or champions of the public interest and service. Those are the people behind the post-brexit world and it's not one I'd want to live, I'd be gone like a shot if those people got hold of my country. You can wave goodbye to the UK as well as Scotland would definitely be off as soon as the English vote leave the EU.

On the other hand the likes Corbyn, McDonell and Lucas have made a positve case for staying in the EU, recognising the rights that it has won for all but also recognising it's faults and showing a desire to join with like minded parties across Europe to affect change. It won't be easy but it is possible.

For all it's faults the EU is a positive institution, fostering a spirit of togetherness and giving the entire continent the opportunity to face global challenges together. You DO get a say in how it is run, you elect MEPS and you elect heads of parliament and ministers who work as part of the European Union parliament and commission. The only thing is that hardly anyone takes an interst in EU elections, or even the GE so holding people to account when you do not even participate in the process can be rather difficult. 

This referendum is only happening because it is the price Cameron had to pay to keep his place at the hlemof the Tory party and it is about Boris Johnson rolling all his dice in a bid to become PM without a genuine care for what the outcome means for the country.

Rant over, dont' really like doing politics on this forum, it's meant to be an escape form these issues, but hey ho this is an important one.

[Spindles]

That's no rant, that's a reasonably stated opinion based on your conclusions.  Totally agree with your point of view.

[Peroni]

The evaii have spoken :

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Peroni
Pic

[shuttlep]

when Scotland had their independence vote, I was one that was thinking they should stay in.

 

i wonder what the people who want to vote leave the EU think about the Scottish vote. did they think they should stay in? or did they think they should leave?

 

and do they see that vote as a similar vote to what we are going through. for example if they thought they should stay in the UK but think we should leave do they see the how wrong that thinking is?

[hfuhruhurr]

This debate is fascinating - one thing, people make emotional and not logical decisions. The key is to figure out the basic emotions that are driving the leavers (I'm in, I'm so so IN!!) to passionately defend a position that logically makes no sense at all.

I cannot for the life of me figure out the cognitive polyphasia going on with the leavers.

On each key point, they are faced with facts but completely discount them - but amazingly, this is wining so many votes.

Economy
Logic says - along with pretty much all the UK/global authorities - the UK would suffer
Emotion says "we're Great Britain, we had an empire, we can conquer the world, we're fab" and so exit wins

Immigration
Logic says it's a complete an utter balls up on a global scale. With communication and travel becoming available to all, with regimes knackered and wars, people move, with economic imbalance people move. There's no easy solution. The UK wanted 10s of thousands, we got 350k, half of which are non-EU. It's a broken system. Economically, immigration is fabulous for this country, culturally, it's our lifeblood.
Emotion says - we're an island, we can keep them out, they won't steal our jobs any more. I'm all right jack.

Sovereignty
No one has the first clue what this really is.
Logic - the EU has democratic and legal structures that have more accountability and more hoops to jump through than the UK's system. The UK's system make undemocratic decisions all the time (tuition fees, fox hunting, academies, fracking)
Emotion - we don't want Brussels telling us what to do. And that somehow trumps logic

The cost of the EU
Logic - we put in about 0.4% of GDP, pretty much every other EU country puts in 0.7%. Now, can you account for, or do you worry about 0.4% of your earnings? No.
Emotion - £350m/week we could spend on the NHS

The Brexiteers
Farage,  Johnson, Gove, IDM ...
Consider the people who are in - basically every economist, every scientist, nearly all world leaders, all the trade unions, nearly all the captains of industry.
Logically, you go with people you respect and admire
Emotionally - Is your value system aligned with these people? I'd rather have a pint with them than Gideon.... oh no.

And finally, do you honestly believe:
1) If the economy goes tits up, you'll be fine? Were you in the last recession?
2) If we get extra money from leaving it will be spent on services or given away as a tax cut (bear in mind, these conservatives will want to win an election and they know lower taxes is the way)

We're in real danger of an exit, and there's absolutely no way to reverse the decision - cock it up and we're knackered.

Please brexit people, put the emotions on hold and read the logic.

[stixmcvix]

I quite like flying to Europe for under 100 quid. 

And I quite like not having to pay for a tourist visa.

And I quite like knowing that I won't have to pay 1000s of quids if I fall ill while I'm there.

And I also like that I can use my phone while I'm there and not get charged 1000000s of quids.

And when I come back, I like to drown my sorrows that the holiday is over in a reasonably-priced glass (or bottle) of wine, that hasn't been overly taxed.

And then when I get over my hangover, I head back into work, and I like that I have a cap on my working hours under the EU working time directive, decent maternity leave and pay and rights, parental leave, and a minimum of 28 days paid annual leave.

So for all those reasons, I'm in.

[6t6o6m]

23 minutes ago, hfuhruhurr said:

This debate is fascinating - one thing, people make emotional and not logical decisions. The key is to figure out the basic emotions that are driving the leavers (I'm in, I'm so so IN!!) to passionately defend a position that logically makes no sense at all.

I cannot for the life of me figure out the cognitive polyphasia going on with the leavers.

On each key point, they are faced with facts but completely discount them - but amazingly, this is wining so many votes.

Economy
Logic says - along with pretty much all the UK/global authorities - the UK would suffer
Emotion says "we're Great Britain, we had an empire, we can conquer the world, we're fab" and so exit wins

Immigration
Logic says it's a complete an utter balls up on a global scale. With communication and travel becoming available to all, with regimes knackered and wars, people move, with economic imbalance people move. There's no easy solution. The UK wanted 10s of thousands, we got 350k, half of which are non-EU. It's a broken system. Economically, immigration is fabulous for this country, culturally, it's our lifeblood.
Emotion says - we're an island, we can keep them out, they won't steal our jobs any more. I'm all right jack.

Sovereignty
No one has the first clue what this really is.
Logic - the EU has democratic and legal structures that have more accountability and more hoops to jump through than the UK's system. The UK's system make undemocratic decisions all the time (tuition fees, fox hunting, academies, fracking)
Emotion - we don't want Brussels telling us what to do. And that somehow trumps logic

The cost of the EU
Logic - we put in about 0.4% of GDP, pretty much every other EU country puts in 0.7%. Now, can you account for, or do you worry about 0.4% of your earnings? No.
Emotion - £350m/week we could spend on the NHS

The Brexiteers
Farage,  Johnson, Gove, IDM ...
Consider the people who are in - basically every economist, every scientist, nearly all world leaders, all the trade unions, nearly all the captains of industry.
Logically, you go with people you respect and admire
Emotionally - Is your value system aligned with these people? I'd rather have a pint with them than Gideon.... oh no.

And finally, do you honestly believe:
1) If the economy goes tits up, you'll be fine? Were you in the last recession?
2) If we get extra money from leaving it will be spent on services or given away as a tax cut (bear in mind, these conservatives will want to win an election and they know lower taxes is the way)

We're in real danger of an exit, and there's absolutely no way to reverse the decision - cock it up and we're knackered.

Please brexit people, put the emotions on hold and read the logic.

Well said, but it won't happen.

I'm starting to worry that we will leave Europe. For starters, the majority of the tripe festering into people's minds on social media is anti immigration or Switzerland are richer than us propaganda. People who use social media to report their lives to all their friends usually found themselves in the lower echelon of examination marks at school (obviously not all people, more generally the loud mouth idiots from school, some in which I call friends) The older I get, the more I notice ill informed people spouting crap and social media is giving them a platform to do so.

Disclaimer - not all people that use social media intensely are idiots 

[bennyhana22]

Holy Democratic Mandate, Batman!

I just voted!

Liberté, Fraternité, Egalité

Ben

[Osama Jim Laden]

On 29 May 2016 at 7:01 PM, somecoolusername said:

 

Thursday 2009 I was lulled to sleep by the sound of our neighbours loudly discussing whether or not Michael Jackson was really dead.

(he was)

Some wollys near us said it was Michael Flatley that had died... He was gone for about an hour or so, til we got the correct Mick

[clarkete]

On the festival FB page I'm surprised at the number of idiots who have only just realised Michael has any interest in left leaning politics.   

I make no apology for insulting them BTW, if they've attended  and haven't picked that up then they don't deserve a ticket :-)

[GlastoSimon]

31 minutes ago, clarkete said:

On the festival FB page I'm surprised at the number of idiots who have only just realised Michael has any interest in left leaning politics.   

I make no apology for insulting them BTW, if they've attended  and haven't picked that up then they don't deserve a ticket :-)

A lot don't have a knowledge of the festival's/the Eavii's history, and don't even venture into the more alternative areas of the festival where you'd pick this up quite quickly.

Shame, but not surprising given how 'big' the fest has got commercially. 

[Gnomicide]

I've never bothered with Glastochat. Looks like it was a wise move.

 

 

[fat_man_joe]

Assuming anyone who watched the debate tonight will now be voting Remain.

[majormajormajor]

5 minutes ago, fat_man_joe said:

Assuming anyone who watched the debate tonight will now be voting Remain.

The audience seemed to be pro-Leave. It's almost all about immigration, but 50% of migration into the UK is from outside the EU. Why isn't this being hammered home by the Remain camp? It's absurd.

[Levitz]

I've voted in, was always in, never in doubt. Yes there are plenty of things about the EU that can be improved, but the benefits outweigh the negatives and you can't improve it if if you're on the outside. Fundamentally we can believe all this horseshit about sovereignty and leave. Then find that we've become an economic backwater with less global influence while still having to abide by all those rules the Brexiteers are pissed off about with no way to influence them in our favour. 

More than that I think it's about your identity and who you think you are. I'm British, but I'm European and a global citizen. I'm not interested in going backwards and being a little Englander. The really big issues like globalisation of companies, wealth inequality of the 1%, tax avoidance, poverty, the environment, postwar peace, terrorism etc span borders and require us to come together and co-operate to build solutions. Yes, getting 28 countries to agree to anything is bureaucratic and time consuming but its a hell of a lot easier if you have the institutions in place to assist and a lot quicker than negotiating 28 bilateral agreements from outside. 

What really pisses me off is that this is really about some venal characters in the Tory party on their own power trip with the ultimate destination of being PM. They will say anything to service their own agenda, they don't give a fuck about the truth or whether jobs are lost or there is another recession because it won't have any negative affect on their lives. It's just a game to them and it'll just be us plebs who take the hit (again). 

I do wonder how many of those who moan about the accountability of the EU have ever even bothered to vote in the European elections.....

Edited June 8, 2016 by Levitz

[Mr.Tease]

7 hours ago, majormajormajor said:

The audience seemed to be pro-Leave. It's almost all about immigration, but 50% of migration into the UK is from outside the EU. Why isn't this being hammered home by the Remain camp? It's absurd.

What annoys me is that the reasons people give for why they are troubled by immigration (lack of housing and other social services, NHS waiting lists, etc) are due to their own reluctance to pay more tax to properly fund these services- they need to look in the mirror rather than blame people who didn't vote tory and have precious little to do with the current state of affairs. 

[al_coholic]

45 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

What annoys me is that the reasons people give for why they are troubled by immigration (lack of housing and other social services, NHS waiting lists, etc) are due to their own reluctance to pay more tax to properly fund these services- they need to look in the mirror rather than blame people who didn't vote tory and have precious little to do with the current state of affairs. 

Totally agree. If we leave the EU and control immigration but then ask the people if they would pay 5p more in the £1 on income tax to support infrastructure and services like the NHS guarantee they would say no. 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, Mr.Tease said:

What annoys me is that the reasons people give for why they are troubled by immigration (lack of housing and other social services, NHS waiting lists, etc) are due to their own reluctance to pay more tax to properly fund these services- they need to look in the mirror rather than blame people who didn't vote tory and have precious little to do with the current state of affairs. 

You're spot on, but Labour don't wish to tackle the issue of consent to taxes either.

They don't want to tackle it so very much that they've started to find their own squirrels (put in front of them by the likes of Milton Friedman and unthinking Greens [that's green behind the ears]) to try and skip past the issue of tax consent and hope no one notices.

Which makes them as stupidly insular and detached from reality as any out-er.

[eFestivals]

55 minutes ago, al_coholic said:

Totally agree. If we leave the EU and control immigration but then ask the people if they would pay 5p more in the £1 on income tax to support infrastructure and services like the NHS guarantee they would say no. 

In Scotland, where even the cats and dogs wear badges expressing their impeccable left-ish credentials if you believe the local myths, they won't even pay 1% when it comes with an absolute guarantee of being money for Scotland because that's how left wing they are.

Edited June 8, 2016 by eFestivals

[Waapster]

23 hours ago, wobble said:

I'm an outer purely on the basis it's not democratic. You can't vote these people out who are choosing the direction the EU is moving. That alone just seems outrageous to me.
I'm not sure on the exact history of it but how long did it take for normal people of this country to get a vote on who leads us and the opportunity to vote them out too.

I even find it a little weird that so many highly placed people don't seem bothered by this

Because its not true. The unelected Commissioners (who are appointed by elected Governments just like our representatives at NATO, UN, WHO, WFP etc) frame legislation and it is voted on by elected MEPs. The Commissioners are there because without them every crackpot MEP would be firing in proposals that would need stand a chance of getting passed.

[Waapster]

23 hours ago, Thevorpalblade said:

 

Lets get the bunting out and welcome the forthcoming benefit claimants of Turkey, Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro and Albania.

 

If you keep repeating this people might start to think you are a little bit racist. Turkey have applied to join. They have not been accepted. They are fucking light years away from being accepted and would have to overcome the Greek veto, let alone ours. But don't let the fact get in the way of trying to scare people about, of all people, the Turkish, many of whom have settled really well, certainly where I live.

[Spindles]

5 hours ago, Levitz said:

What really pisses me off is that this is really about some venal characters in the Tory party on their own power trip with the ultimate destination of being PM. They will say anything to service their own agenda, they don't give a fuck about the truth or whether jobs are lost or there is another recession because it won't have any negative affect on their lives. It's just a game to them and it'll just be us plebs who take the hit (again)....

We are only having this referendum in the first place because it should finally settle the major issue of disunity within the Tory party, even if it means civil war (which it does).  If you think it's bad now, just imagine what politics will be like in the 6-12 weeks following the result as the party of Government tears itself apart as a result of the corner they've backed themselves into. 

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, Spindles said:

We are only having this referendum in the first place because it should finally settle the major issue of disunity within the Tory party

Sorry, but that's utter bollocks.

There's long been a majority of people in the country who've wanted this referendum. In this democracy, doesn't the opinion of 'the people' count for anything?
(It's particularly amusing when SNP-supporters trot out the same line as you just have)

I think those people are wrong in wanting this referendum, but nothing of that has me thinking that it's wrong that we're having it given those opinions.

Ultimately, I think the mistake has been that the demand for a ref has been ignored for too long. If, for example, we'd had a ref 10 years ago under Labour, I suspect it would have been easily won and the issue put to bed. The issue scared Labour too much to act, but what they didn't consider was how scary they might find a ref in the circumstances we now have.

Which was, of course, Labour playing things for their own short term gain in exactly the same way as caused pigfuckin' Dave to offer a ref as part of the tory manifesto.

Heads up arses from both parties in the past, and heads up arses from both of them now.