Glastonbury and Politics

[DeanoL]

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

The 'conflict' within the Labour party at present isn't because some are "red tories", it's because those people recognise what is required to have the public's support in order to be elected.

 

Isn't it both? The knives out for Corbyn are pretty much about him being a bit shit (fair), not that he's too left wing. It's not like he's announced he wants a 60p tax rate if he gets in and the other half of the party think he's going too far.

3 hours ago, snorton82 said:

The only people who get offensive and call people vile names are Labour voters attacking Tories and trying to shame their voters....one of the reasons i'll probably never vote Labour again (as I used to).

 

In the aftermath of the last election the protests were pathetic. Middle class students rampaging through London desecrating war memorials and abusing anyone who dared to vote Tory. It was a democracy, deal with it.

And in 2002 six people were arrested at the countryside alliance march against the hunting ban. There are plenty of c**ts on both sides. Also it was war memorial. Single. Just one (and one person).

It's also weird how that march and plenty of the anti austerity campaigning get far more negative press than the actual riots we had over it not so long ago...

[DeanoL]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

well, don't go forgetting that the hated Westminster system saved us from a tory/UKIP coalition this time around if PR had been in place - so things could be worse.

Yeah but like you've said before, last election was fought under fear of creating a 'weak' coalition government. So votes moved from Labour to Tory under fear of the SNP... People would have voted differently under PR. The very campaigns run would have been different.

I do find it interesting that everyone who claims FPTP is fairer is perfectly happy to throw it out for the referendum. If it's so fair why aren't we voting on the EU in constituencies, so each constituency casts one vote total, depending on if more people vote yes or no there.

Try suggesting that to people and they'll think you're mad. Yet they're fine electing a government that way.

[GlastoSimon]

3 hours ago, snorton82 said:

The only people who get offensive and call people vile names are Labour voters attacking Tories and trying to shame their voters....one of the reasons i'll probably never vote Labour again (as I used to).

 

In the aftermath of the last election the protests were pathetic. Middle class students rampaging through London desecrating war memorials and abusing anyone who dared to vote Tory. It was a democracy, deal with it.

I don't know your own personal experiences with Labour supporters, but the anti-austerity march was respectful, good natured, and the vast, vast majority of people on it were well behaved. That paragraph is utter hyperbole, what about the rest?

I wish people would stop making excuses for who they vote for. Tories, Greens, whatever. Its your vote, you use it and the consequences of it are yours. Stop painting the picture that other people forcefully made you vote differently, and accept that they're your own political views that have changed. 

[Rose-Colored Boy]

3 hours ago, snorton82 said:

The only people who get offensive and call people vile names are Labour voters attacking Tories and trying to shame their voters....one of the reasons i'll probably never vote Labour again (as I used to).

 

In the aftermath of the last election the protests were pathetic. Middle class students rampaging through London desecrating war memorials and abusing anyone who dared to vote Tory. It was a democracy, deal with it.

 

Because no establishment officials ever desecrate war memorials of their own accord, and the media never ever hype up the 1% of a peaceful protest which gets rowdy, to discredit the whole protest and deflect from the issue at hand. Nope. Never happens. Never.

[Rose-Colored Boy]

21 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Yeah but like you've said before, last election was fought under fear of creating a 'weak' coalition government. So votes moved from Labour to Tory under fear of the SNP... People would have voted differently under PR. The very campaigns run would have been different.

Quite. Obviously the media wouldn't have pushed a UKIP-Tory coalition as a negative prospect in the way they did a Labour-SNP one but I have no doubt that if a UKIP-Tory coalition had been a realistic prospect then some voters would have jumped ship to Labour to keep UKIP out of office, or along those lines. Plus if every vote counted then turnout would have been higher and Labour's vote share would have been higher because people in Labour heartlands would have been motivated to get out and vote, etc etc etc. There's no point whatsoever in saying 'if the results under this system were transferred to this other system then Nigel Farage would be ruining around the Cabinet Office mouthing off about immigrants right now' because so much of voting is tactical based on the likely results and what have you. And frankly, if it meant we had a fairer democracy, I'm not sure a UKIP-Tory coalition would have been so much worse than the horrors of a majority Tory government anyway. For a start we'd likely have avoided the £12bn welfare cuts because it's pretty commonly accepted that the Torys only put them in their manifesto to use as something to give up in coalition negotiations.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Zac Quinn

[DeanoL]

Well yeah, a UKIP/Tory coalition would have just had a guaranteed referendum as the concession to UKIP, because that's basically all they want. And we're having one anyway.

[Rose-Colored Boy]

They'd probably have insisted that the cabinet campaigned for Leave but the Cabinet's position has had so little impact that that wouldn't really have mattered 

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, DeanoL said:

Yeah but like you've said before, last election was fought under fear of creating a 'weak' coalition government. So votes moved from Labour to Tory under fear of the SNP... People would have voted differently under PR. The very campaigns run would have been different.

I don't disagree that people would have voted differently, but people weren't voting for right wing parties because they wanted something leftish.

 

[fur_q]

14 hours ago, DeanoL said:

Isn't it both? The knives out for Corbyn are pretty much about him being a bit shit (fair), not that he's too left wing. It's not like he's announced he wants a 60p tax rate if he gets in and the other half of the party think he's going too far.

o

 

I don't think he's a great leader but the Progress lot started throwing their toys out the pram before the final result was even known. They seem unable to grasp that Liz Kendal is nor particularly popular and that we're not fighting 1997 election again, things have moved on. I sort of see Corbyn's election as leader not as him winning but all the others loosing. 

[Comfy Bean]

On 26/05/2016 at 10:15 AM, eFestivals said:

How does supporting the council tax make them progressive?

 

Or........The SNP have increased the charge on the top 4 bands only across Scotland this year leaving a,b,c & d to only the % increase set by the local authority. A wee bit progressive in my opinion.

[Comfy Bean]

On 26/05/2016 at 10:55 AM, eFestivals said:

And the SNP know it even if their voters don't - which is why they didn't ask for Scotland to self-fund in their Scotland Act amendment that they (falsely) claim was a demand to self-fund. It was - as the text makes clear - a demand that the UK keeps on sending them money.

Shirley a point of order here, or, the sound of a mask slipping  

Are the Scots no longer IN the UK ?

 

 

 

 

#subsidyjunkies

[eFestivals]

36 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Shirley a point of order here, or, the sound of a mask slipping  

Are the Scots no longer IN the UK ?

#subsidyjunkies

 

The comedy is in the SNP claim that they asked for self funding when what they really asked for was for the UK to keep sending them money.

Go read that SNP amendment and see for yourself.

Edited May 27, 2016 by eFestivals

[DeanoL]

So is the Ed Miliband on in Speakers Corner that one?

[RichardWaller]

On 27/05/2016 at 8:37 AM, eFestivals said:

I don't disagree that people would have voted differently, but people weren't voting for right wing parties because they wanted something leftish.

 

Lies from all sides though, isn't it? Ed Milliband can't eat a bacon sandwich properly, how could he run the country? His dad hated Britain too, didn't he. On the other hand, the Tories were going to cut the deficit, not the NHS. They were going to leave tax credits alone too, weren't they? 

People have been conned, again, left, right and centre.

[p.pete]

JC4PM on Caberet Saturday morning.  I'll hopefully get to this as not managed to get to one of their shows yet.  Should be interesting for them, I assume the average person at their usual gigs are very positive for the outcome of JC4PM, whereas on this thread there's only 40% for Labour, never mind JC.  Obviously there'll still be a favorable crowd but maybe more opportunity for disagreement.

[RichardWaller]

29 minutes ago, p.pete said:

JC4PM on Caberet Saturday morning.  I'll hopefully get to this as not managed to get to one of their shows yet.  Should be interesting for them, I assume the average person at their usual gigs are very positive for the outcome of JC4PM, whereas on this thread there's only 40% for Labour, never mind JC.  Obviously there'll still be a favorable crowd but maybe more opportunity for disagreement.

I wonder if there's more support for Corbyn than Labour though. There's a clear difference right now. I like Corbyn and I'd like to support him but in the local elections I voted Green because,  perverse as it is, I seriously struggle to see voting Labour as a way of supporting Corbyn. Depending on where you are and who you're voting for, supporting Labour can be a way of directly opposing Corbyn. It's a ridiculous state of affairs. 

[stuartbert two hats]

18 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

I wonder if there's more support for Corbyn than Labour though. There's a clear difference right now. I like Corbyn and I'd like to support him but in the local elections I voted Green because,  perverse as it is, I seriously struggle to see voting Labour as a way of supporting Corbyn. Depending on where you are and who you're voting for, supporting Labour can be a way of directly opposing Corbyn. It's a ridiculous state of affairs. 

I think you're overthinking it.  Voting for the Labour party is most definitely a way of supporting the leader of the Labour Party.

[bamber]

Ed Miliband is in Speaker's Forum on Saturday I notice, talking Climate and Energy, might get a rough ride there (or not).

[RichardWaller]

8 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I think you're overthinking it.  Voting for the Labour party is most definitely a way of supporting the leader of the Labour Party.

I don't think I am overthinking it at all. Voting for the Labour Party should be a way of supporting their leader but it isn't necessarily by a long stretch. Since Corbyn was even nominated he's faced stronger opposition from within the party than any other party leader I can think of, and when you're opposing a leader chosen by supporters you're opposing supporters. So when you support certain factions of a party, you're opposing Corbyn. 

I'm surprised Blairites are as prominent as they are, even now. Who trusts Tony Blair now, seriously? Obviously, Iraq and the lies around that are the big one. Then there's New Labour's failure with housebuilding, but why not cos Blair's a buy to let landlord these days. Plus the fact that under his leadership Labour lost over half their membership and 4,000,000 votes. Incredible. Yeah, he won the elections he won but come on, for Labour, at the time, who wouldn't have?

[budvar]

2 hours ago, DeanoL said:

So is the Ed Miliband on in Speakers Corner that one?

Looks like it - I remember seeing Nick Clegg talk there a few years ago and he was given a tough time so should be interesting.

[p.pete]

1 hour ago, RichardWaller said:

I wonder if there's more support for Corbyn than Labour though. There's a clear difference right now. I like Corbyn and I'd like to support him but in the local elections I voted Green because,  perverse as it is, I seriously struggle to see voting Labour as a way of supporting Corbyn. Depending on where you are and who you're voting for, supporting Labour can be a way of directly opposing Corbyn. It's a ridiculous state of affairs. 

I can empathise, I've previously voted Green despite their leader, and more recently voted Labour because of their leader.  My local Labour MP replied to me politely disagreeing when I emailed requesting he oppose bombing Syria, so we'll see how I feel when it gets to 2020.

[RichardWaller]

1 hour ago, p.pete said:

I can empathise, I've previously voted Green despite their leader, and more recently voted Labour because of their leader.  My local Labour MP replied to me politely disagreeing when I emailed requesting he oppose bombing Syria, so we'll see how I feel when it gets to 2020.

Very awkward isn't it? I can certainly empathise with people who think politicians are all as bad as each other, but I do try to be a bit less fatalistic about it. Maybe that'll bite me in the arse, but whatever, if you haven't got hope what have you got?

[DeanoL]

Going back to the original topic, the politics does seem a fair bit more pervasive this year. The Speakers Corner seems to have far more left-wing political speakers than normal, and Grace Petrie and JC4PM are both on at the Cabaret tent. It does seem to have grown a little bit.

[eFestivals]

20 hours ago, RichardWaller said:

Lies from all sides though, isn't it? Ed Milliband can't eat a bacon sandwich properly, how could he run the country? His dad hated Britain too, didn't he. On the other hand, the Tories were going to cut the deficit, not the NHS. They were going to leave tax credits alone too, weren't they? 

People have been conned, again, left, right and centre.

People voted for the tories despite knowing they were lying. Don't go kidding yourself it was different to that. The simple fact is: those people felt the tories were a better bet than Labour while knowing the flaws with both parties.

It's a mistake to think "now the public know the tories are liars Labour are guaranteed to win next time". The tories lied in 2010 but still won in 2015. Labour will only win when they can put forwards a better proposition for the public than the tories do, AND be trusted around it.

Both parties can promise the world, but if the public don't believe things will work out in the way they say then those promises end up meaning fuck all,  The public will vote for the one that they believe will turn out better - and that has little to do with any lies either party might spout in order to win your vote.

One of the reasons Labour lost the last election was because there were a bunch of light-thoughters who were shouting about how crap Osborne was for missing his deficit reduction targets while at the same time advocating spending more and therefore doing a worse job at handling the country's limited resources. Things like this don't pass the public by.

[eFestivals]

18 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I think you're overthinking it.  Voting for the Labour party is most definitely a way of supporting the leader of the Labour Party.

However, voting for the leader isn't necessarily supporting the party.

Haven't you noticed how many of the Corbynistas are tourists? The very people who wouldn't vote Labour and so helped cause the tory govt they like to moan about?

There's only one alternative to the tories. If you don't vote for that alternative you might as well give the tories your vote.

I'm exceeding bored with the bollocks that gets spouted about how these poor dejected people couldn't vote for what they like to call 'red tories' - because those very people are the ones who put the real tories in power.

Do those people believe in social justice? Or do those people only believe in getting everything they demand like a small child and will throw their dummy out of the pram and be happy to punch themselves in the face if mummy won't give them everything they want? Me me me, just like a tory.

Some people need to take a long hard look at themselves. Social solidarity isn't about what you want for yourself. It's not a feckin' menu.