When a pint isn't a pint scam

[MilkyJoe]

Heres a thought, could the tall cups hold a pint with a head and the shorter ones a pint without a head, meaning that a full tall cup actually holds more than a pint and a full short cup with a head less?

[ghostdancer1]

you'd really need to show proof that they were advertised as "pints" too.

i've been to plenty of events where it says eg. Carlsberg - 500ml - £4, or whatever and people just say "2 pints of Carlsberg at the bar"....

[incident]

I'm massively doubtful that this would have happened as anything other than a mistake, and even then on a very small scale.

For the simple reason that as far as I'm aware, this is the first time this has been brought up on these forums, and given how obsessed we all are with the microscopic details of Glastonbury on here, if it had happened in any significant numbers there's absolutely no chance there wouldn't have been a 50+ page thread on it in the week following the Festival.

473ml vs 568ml is easily noticeable without having to decant the drink into another cup. So it's inconceivable to me that it could have passed without comment if more than a handful of people had been affected.

[Boozy]

Some of the bars sell cans and decant them if I remember rightly. That could be the reason for the smaller cups. I think the cans are 440ml. 

[smytho15]

The Weights and Measures Act of 1897 made the provision that metric units could be used in addition to the traditional imperial units for purposes of trade.^[5][6] In practice, the actual choice of units was restricted by price marking orders which listed packaging sizes and pricing structures that might be used in specific circumstances. For example, as of April 2012, wine for consumption on premises may only be sold in 125, 175, and 250 mL glasses while draught beer may only be sold in ¹⁄₃, ¹⁄₂, ²⁄₃ and one pint glasses. Prior to 1973, when the United Kingdom joined the EEC, such specifications were almost all in imperial units.

[kaytee...]

56 minutes ago, GETOFFAMYLAWN said:

Starbucks?

Costa. Never tried it with Starbucks though. Tbh I never go to coffee shops anymore

[KryziF]

Is it these cups you're talking about? Fairly sure I was never served beer in them, but did get cocktails.

Edited May 8, 2016 by KryziF

[Flux Capacitor]

1 minute ago, KryziF said:

I'd it these cups you're talking about? Fairly sure I was never served beer in them, but did get cocktails.

https://goo.gl/photos/Hr69J4uzaanufY2N9

Quite possibly.   Maybe they ran out of 'normal' cups and ended up using those.  It was on saturday/sunday when we noticed. 

I had an abundance of pint cups as I also had a couple of the staff bar plastic reusable ones which were legit pints. Other bars wouldn't accept them to be filled up though.


Hopefully it will all be good this year if everyone has REAL pint steel cup, but at least people might at least be more vigilant now!

[billum]

1 minute ago, Flux Capacitor said:

Hopefully it will all be good this year if everyone has REAL pint steel cup, but at least people might at least be more vigilant now!

Yes this sounds like a bullet-proof solution - we know these will be proper imperial pints and there'll be no substituting them because they've "run out of the proper size", which is a piss-poor excuse for breaking the law

[stuartbert two hats]

1 minute ago, billum said:

Yes this sounds like a bullet-proof solution - we know these will be proper imperial pints and there'll be no substituting them because they've "run out of the proper size", which is a piss-poor excuse for breaking the law

I wouldn't get your hopes up.  All the signs are that despite 250,000 sounding like a big number, this is just a pilot and the steel cups are expected to run out, most drinks will still be served in paper cups.

[Flux Capacitor]

Unless i'm very much mistaken, the steel glastonbury water bottles were rebranded  KK bottles. At least they look identical, hope they aren't going to be KK pint cups!

[musky]

Glasto-worker has spoken many times of the system WBC uses for pouring multiple beers, and if there was an issue there it would require not just smaller cups but the dispenser to be altered as well. I'm finding it very difficult to believe that a charitable organisation staffed by volunteers would risk the repercussions of deliberately pouring short measures. 

West Holts bar is run by Avalon though, and I can't remember how they go about pouring pints. 

Isn't it allowed for 10% of a pint to comprise of the head? I don't know if it's possible that this could account for the discrepancy, but I'd consider it sharp practice to systematically use this to the bars' advantage anyway. 

[Flux Capacitor]

2 minutes ago, musky said:

Glasto-worker has spoken many times of the system WBC uses for pouring multiple beers, and if there was an issue there it would require not just smaller cups but the dispenser to be altered as well. I'm finding it very difficult to believe that a charitable organisation staffed by volunteers would risk the repercussions of deliberately pouring short measures. 

West Holts bar is run by Avalon though, and I can't remember how they go about pouring pints. 

Isn't it allowed for 10% of a pint to comprise of the head? I don't know if it's possible that this could account for the discrepancy, but I'd consider it sharp practice to systematically use this to the bars' advantage anyway. 

The bars in question had a normal pub type pump, not one of those multi pint filling thingies.  The person pulling the pint could fill it up as much as they wanted.

[musky]

2 minutes ago, Flux Capacitor said:

The bars in question had a normal pub type pump, not one of those multi pint filling thingies.  The person pulling the pint could fill it up as much as they wanted.

Well that does rule out WBC bars then. 

[glasto-worker]

11 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I'd be interested in @glasto-worker's take on this.

 

10 hours ago, musky said:

Glasto-worker is with WBC isn't he? The other big provider of bars is Avalon, though I've little idea of who runs which bars. Avalon ones are staffed by Shelter volunteers aren't they? It'd be interesting to see if there's a correlation with the smaller cups. 

I've got to say that MDC are all over the bars during the festival and I'd be quite surprised if they don't check the measures. 

be it WBC or Avalon the procedure is the same.

before any bar can open - Weights and Measures are all over each bar and they take a measurement of each cup in use and they test all { repeat all } the MDU's { the machine that bangs out 12 pints at a time }

Now many people will not look all that close at a cup - as a cup is a cup

these cups are ' oversized ' due to the MDU { the machine that bangs out 12 pints at a time } look close and you will see a line { its that line that is  568ml )

some images in this thread are ' WBC cups ' - the one with the advert on it and the yellow cup

they are both  ' oversized ' 

The cups  with the advert are for cider and lager 
The ' yellow ones ' are meant to be used for soft drinks but in a busy bar when those MDU's are going full tilt { there can be 12 or more all banging out a dozen pints } and from time to time a yellow box will be open by mistake so they will end up being used .

each cup ' has been approved by Weights and Measures '  so it does not matter which cup ' they will be a full pint.

Now it is true that sometimes in ' hot weather ' this may cause problems and for a short period
of time the MDU can end up where the pint foams up - this can be corrected by changing the cooler
settings but behind the scenes there will be frantic activity to get the cooler down to stop the foam .

Its at this point ' its all down to the MDU Operator ' - look close and you can soon spot ' the ones
who know what they are doing.'

if they have a tray of underweight pints - they will be moved to the side - they will then be left to stand for the foam to go down and the pints will be topped up to the correct line . 

If the MDU Operator is new then they will tend not to top up - The Managers should spot this straight away.

Now I don't have a clue about any shorter cups ' all I know is they did not come from a WBC Bar
{ and I would expect Avalon to be the same }

Christ sake ' while the festival is on  Weights and Measures take random samples and they would
' shut any bar that same day ' if they were caught using a ' none approved cup '

Don't forget there is over 90 bars although ' some I would suspect ' are not official bars - the DPS is issued a list ' and that pinpoints each bar but each year there can be five or more Unofficial bars which are closed down when caught.

How can you work out ' if its a official bar ' ? the licence will be on display - that shows the DPS name and the Tent Managers name - if you cant see a licence then you risk being cheated because sure as shit ' none of them will have been inspected by Weights and Measures.

I will not get into the metal cup debate as I don't know anything about them.

Now anyone who gets a pint that is not a pint should walk straight back to the bar and ask who is the Tent Manager and ' pull them up as its Fraud ' 

Keep a note of the bar name and the Tent Manager name and I will pass it onto GFL - keep the paper cup as proof 

In fact in the UK it would be very difficult to buy pint paper cups that are not pint cups so someone has to be at it.

By the way ' The WBC stopped using a normal pub type pump ' in the public bars at Glastonbury sometime in the 90's ' - they are only used at smaller events where there is no great big demand so whoever runs these bars ' they are not WBC bars '   

[Flux Capacitor]

3 minutes ago, glasto-worker said:

 

be it WBC or Avalon the procedure is the same.

before any bar can open - Weights and Measures are all over each bar and they take a measurement of each cup in use and they test all { repeat all } the MDU's { the machine that bangs out 12 pints at a time }

Now many people will not look all that close at a cup - as a cup is a cup

these cups are ' oversized ' due to the MDU { the machine that bangs out 12 pints at a time } look close and you will see a line { its that line that is  568ml )

some images in this thread are ' WBC cups ' - the one with the advert on it and the yellow cup

they are both  ' oversized ' 

The cups  with the advert are for cider and lager 
The ' yellow ones ' are meant to be used for soft drinks but in a busy bar when those MDU's are going full tilt { there can be 12 or more all banging out a dozen pints } and from time to time a yellow box will be open by mistake so they will end up being used .

each cup ' has been approved by Weights and Measures '  so it does not matter which cup ' they will be a full pint.

Now it is true that sometimes in ' hot weather ' this may cause problems and for a short period
of time the MDU can end up where the pint foams up - this can be corrected by changing the cooler
settings but behind the scenes there will be frantic activity to get the cooler down to stop the foam .

Its at this point ' its all down to the MDU Operator ' - look close and you can soon spot ' the ones
who know what they are doing.'

if they have a tray of underweight pints - they will be moved to the side - they will then be left to stand for the foam to go down and the pints will be topped up to the correct line . 

If the MDU Operator is new then they will tend not to top up - The Managers should spot this straight away.

Now I don't have a clue about any shorter cups ' all I know is they did not come from a WBC Bar
{ and I would expect Avalon to be the same }

Christ sake ' while the festival is on  Weights and Measures take random samples and they would
' shut any bar that same day ' if they were caught using a ' none approved cup '

Don't forget there is over 90 bars although ' some I would suspect ' are not official bars - the DPS is issued a list ' and that pinpoints each bar but each year there can be five or more Unofficial bars which are closed down when caught.

How can you work out ' if its a official bar ' ? the licence will be on display - that shows the DPS name and the Tent Managers name - if you cant see a licence then you risk being cheated because sure as shit ' none of them will have been inspected by Weights and Measures.

I will not get into the metal cup debate as I don't know anything about them.

Now anyone who gets a pint that is not a pint should walk straight back to the bar and ask who is the Tent Manager and ' pull them up as its Fraud ' 

Keep a note of the bar name and the Tent Manager name and I will pass it onto GFL - keep the paper cup as proof 

In fact in the UK it would be very difficult to buy pint paper cups that are not pint cups so someone has to be at it.

By the way ' The WBC stopped using a normal pub type pump ' in the public bars at Glastonbury sometime in the 90's ' - they are only used at smaller events where there is no great big demand so whoever runs these bars ' they are not WBC bars '   

What is the WBC please?
I don't know the full ins and outs of pumps but it definitely wasn't from one of those multi pint things.

The 2nd time it happened was from the bar opposite the cabaret tent. The one you can sit in.

I'll be armed with my camera this year!

[glasto-worker]

1 hour ago, musky said:

Glasto-worker has spoken many times of the system WBC uses for pouring multiple beers, and if there was an issue there it would require not just smaller cups but the dispenser to be altered as well. I'm finding it very difficult to believe that a charitable organisation staffed by volunteers would risk the repercussions of deliberately pouring short measures. 

West Holts bar is run by Avalon though, and I can't remember how they go about pouring pints. 

Isn't it allowed for 10% of a pint to comprise of the head? I don't know if it's possible that this could account for the discrepancy, but I'd consider it sharp practice to systematically use this to the bars' advantage anyway. 

well look at it this way - although you cant see it ' its the same system that pubs use ' and each MDU uses a ' metered glass container ' that is exactly 1/2 a pint - look close and you will see the operator presses twice so they end up with a dozen pints.

 

these metered glass containers are tested by Weights and Measures and lets say the WBC was at it they would have to change all these  metered glass container's - it would cost a Fortune and it would be so easy to spot ' - in a large bar there will be 144 ' metered glass containers ' and they would end up in Court if they were caught not using a 1/2 pint.

 

it just would not be worth it - I know the Council and they would never risk imprisonment as sure as shit that is where they would end up .

 

Whichever bar was involved ' it was not a WBC bar '

11 minutes ago, Flux Capacitor said:

What is the WBC please?
I don't know the full ins and outs of pumps but it definitely wasn't from one of those multi pint things.

The 2nd time it happened was from the bar opposite the cabaret tent. The one you can sit in.

I'll be armed with my camera this year!

Workers Beer Company and they have ran bars for 30 years at Glastonbury and it was not a WBC Bar - that I am certain about.

Edited May 8, 2016 by glasto-worker

[ghostdancer1]

15 minutes ago, Flux Capacitor said:

The 2nd time it happened was from the bar opposite the cabaret tent. The one you can sit in.

I'll be armed with my camera this year!

one of these large tents?

[Flux Capacitor]

7 minutes ago, ghostdancer1 said:

one of these large tents?

The big one closest to the yellow marker looks about right.  If i remember right there was a small outdoor stage/platform, then the cabaret tent then opposite was a blue/red bar. 

Somewhere round here did really nice and cheap cheesy chips too!

Edited May 8, 2016 by Flux Capacitor
.

[Dave F.]

I had this a few times. The worst was in The Bimble Inn with their cask ale. I scooped out all the foam & was left with a bit less than half a pint. I don't think it's deliberate, just incompetence. Bars employ people who have no other pub experience. They just fill up the cup with whatever comes out of the tap. When it (the foam) gets to the marker they stop, even though it's not liquid. You'd have thought than anybody could have felt the difference in weight between what I got & a full pint.

This goes back to a comment I made in the thread about the steel beakers. With the clear plastic Glastonbury used to use you could clearly see if you got a short measure. The almost opaqueness of the paper cups made it harder. I was told MDC wanted staff to pour the beer initially into clear cups, then transfer to the paper ones. The steel cups will be even more problematic.

 

6 hours ago, kaytee... said:

Its the same with large and medium coffee cups in a certain chain of coffee shops. You'll find that you'll fill a medium cup with a 'large' drink

You only fall for that if you don't understand the concept of oversized containers. The video which was doing the rounds clearly showed the large filled to the line, but when poured into the medium was virtually overflowing,

[glasto-worker]

1 hour ago, Dave F. said:

1 hour ago, Dave F. said:

I had this a few times. The worst was in The Bimble Inn with their cask ale. I scooped out all the foam & was left with a bit less than half a pint. I don't think it's deliberate, just incompetence. Bars employ people who have no other pub experience. They just fill up the cup with whatever comes out of the tap. When it (the foam) gets to the marker they stop, even though it's not liquid. You'd have thought than anybody could have felt the difference in weight between what I got & a full pint.

This goes back to a comment I made in the thread about the steel beakers. With the clear plastic Glastonbury used to use you could clearly see if you got a short measure. The almost opaqueness of the paper cups made it harder. I was told MDC wanted staff to pour the beer initially into clear cups, then transfer to the paper ones. The steel cups will be even more problematic.

The Bimble Inn on their FB page claim they are one of the bars this year that will be using a steel pint cups.

 

Now I am not claiming this happens all the time ' in every bar ' as there is many Operators now but when the WBC ran the Red Flag which was in the Acoustic area and was mainly cask ale there was a clear plastic beaker { approved by Weights and Measures } by each cask and the ' standard Operator instructions ' was that the staff would fill that up and then pour that into a paper cup but for sure when it got very busy some would skip that part.

 

if you think its underweight than its down to you to pull them up .

 

You can blindfold me and I can tell you if a paper cup contains a full pint but of course I have been a volunteer for a long time - if a Customer thinks they have a underweight Pint ' then Complain '

 

If its a cask ale then demand for that drink to be poured into a ' Weights and Measures approved clear plastic beaker '

 

But that is a separate issue to what was raised by Flux Capacitor claiming that some unnamed bars were using 473ml Cups.I would love to find out who the bar Operators are - their name will be on the license and if you can prove it ' complain '

 

The Price list will have the price of a Pint - a UK Pint - if its not  20 imperial fluid ounces ' Complain '

 

one has to wonder why this has not cropped up before as 'incident' mentioned { posted 6 hours ago } so I have to wonder if its a new Bar Operator who was not running bars before 2015.

 

I would go ballistic if a Bar tried to use a US Cup as that is deception and I would be onto Weights and Measures straight away.

 

one has to wonder where the cups came from.

 

I do agree that these steel cups { lucky enough there is only a claimed ten bars who will be using them } may complicate matters.

 

Be it steel - plastic or paper - it makes no matter if you pay for a UK Pint then it should be a UK Pint.

 

By the way - if a Bar is selling cans then the price list should clearly mention what size of can that is - if its not clearly displayed then Complain.

Edited May 9, 2016 by glasto-worker

[GlastoLuvvinJock]

The bars that I particularly noticed the issue in was the one opposite the cabaret tent and another near the road that leads from Accoustic area towards the Cider bus, it had big padded beds and benches in. I particularly remember that the Bimble Inn was fine as was the real ale bar in the Accoustic field. 

It must have been earlier in the week that I noticed as I gave up on my tankard due to the metallic taste it was giving my beer.

[pie_and_a_pint]

6 hours ago, Dave F. said:

I had this a few times. The worst was in The Bimble Inn with their cask ale. I scooped out all the foam & was left with a bit less than half a pint. I don't think it's deliberate, just incompetence. Bars employ people who have no other pub experience. They just fill up the cup with whatever comes out of the tap. When it (the foam) gets to the marker they stop, even though it's not liquid. You'd have thought than anybody could have felt the difference in weight between what I got & a full pint.

 

The Bimble Inn is lovely but the staff behind the bar can be a little, erm, 'refreshed' sometimes, especially as the night wears on, so I don't doubt it was accidental. Not that that's an excuse, mind - I'd be pretty pissed off, especially as it's usually 8 deep at the bar and popping back to get it topped up is a military operation. 

It can work the other way in the customer's favour sometimes, as I found out at Bimble Bandada the year before last when I got rather more than a single shot in my vodka and coke...  

[The_Amazing_Oblong]

I've worked the West Holts Bar for Avalon. As glasto_worker states we used mdu's for lager and cider which is preset to serve a half pint on the dot. Ales are hand poured so it is possible to get a short pint of ale, especially in the first couple days until the volunteers get the hang of pulling a pint.

If you do get a half pint of foam just kindly query it and the manager should replace it no bother and hopefully show the staff where they are going wrong. A lot of Avalon bar staff have no bar experience so mistakes will be made. WBC bars tend to have more experienced staff.

[mungo57]

I used to work in a real ale bar and we had the same problem with ale under controlled conditions - depends on a lot of factors like storage, who is pouring, technique etc. They are usually hand poured compared to the ciders and lagers so a lot more room for error. I had ONE ale the whole of G last year (mainly ciders) and it was quite foamy, I think I got it from the bar at the acoustic field and asked for a top up and got one. I am a stickler for underpoured pints normally and I like glasto worker could probably tell just by holding it whether a pint in a plastic or cardboard cup was under just by holding it. I like beer you see

Edited May 9, 2016 by mungo57