Euro referendum Glasto disenfranchised?

[PFests]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Hmmmm.... if the EU hadn't have got involved years ago, those local opinions would have already fished the place to extinction, so there's certainly not the space to claim the higher moral ground or better knowledge from that side. And if the EU have also made cock-ups then that's much the same. All that really proves is that the best intentioned can make cock-ups.

The very nature of collaboration means that sometimes we shouldn't get our own way, because our own way isn't always best. I'd say it's around that particular factor that the hackles rise in most of the out-ers.

I was going to add on a little bit about that because in the example of fishing, there was a non-ignorable decline in stocks anyway before the introduction of the Common Fisheries Policy, but the decline still goes on. I fully concede that the EU has been the reason for the introduction or recognition of policies aimed at protection whether it be fish stocks or employment law or consumer rights. Is it the most efficient way though as it stands? Can we build upon this?

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, PFests said:

Is it the most efficient way though as it stands? Can we build upon this?

A collaborative approach is by far the best way to make things happen and ensure that people (mostly) act to them.

People acting solely in their own best interests will unavoidably conflict with others who are also pursuing just their own interests. Sooner or later they will start shooting each other, that's how it goes.

 

[eFestivals]

25 minutes ago, Whittick said:

It's just a shame the EU Parliament is the weakest of the three branches of EU legislation, behind the unelected council and commission. 

I agree.

But have you noticed that those who bemoan the lack of power exercised by the European parliament are often the same people who shout loudest if it's suggested the EP is given more power. They don't want 90% 'foreigners' telling the UK what to do, and would much rather that the UK's argument came from the UK's PM within whichever one of the similarly named forums it is the member country's national leaders meet.

Me, I'm not entirely sure how it should be structured, but I'm quite comfortable with the influence of all those 'foreigners' on the decisions that come out of the EU, as the greater the numbers the greater the chance of any more-extreme views being marginalised (including extreme tory views) - and that for me is the over-riding Good Thing that makes the EU worthwhile in almost all circumstances.

Look at our own fuck up as a country, it's at least the same amount of fuck-up as anything EU.

There's plenty wrong with the EU, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved - but we need to be inclusive members, and not threatening to throw our toys out of the pram.

I'm seriously concerned now that we might vote out. I hope not because they'll be some resulting turbulence, which will enable the 1% to run away with some more.

[KVShinedown]

33 minutes ago, Whittick said:

It's just a shame the EU Parliament is the weakest of the three branches of EU legislation, behind the unelected council and commission. 

The Council is directly elected! Its composed of the 28 ministers (one per member state) that have the appropriate portfolio for the matter at hand, i.e. if a health issue was being discussed then Jeremy Hunt would be the British representative and last time I checked he was elected by the British people.

The Commission is composed of 28 Commissioners and are appointed by the elected government of the state they represent, so Jonathan Hill (the current British commissioner) was appointed by Call Me Dave. These appointments are then voted on by the European Parliament, which as has already been pointed out is directly elected. 

I find neither of these institutions to be undemocratic in the slightest. The HoL is more undemocratic than either.

[phillyfaddle]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

There's plenty wrong with the EU, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved - but we need to be inclusive members, and not threatening to throw our toys out of the pram.

I'm seriously concerned now that we might vote out. I hope not because they'll be some resulting turbulence, which will enable the 1% to run away with some more.

THIS. Nailed it there Neil.

[alframsey]

6 hours ago, Winslow Leach said:

State of this comment.

But as long as you've made your glorious stand against neoliberalism, I suppose that's fine. That'll show them.

Sorry the spelling mistakes and autocorrected words upset you pal, I really am.

[Tyonks]

10 hours ago, michael eavis' beard said:

You confess to not being fully conversant on the facts then make a statement that is - shock horror - not true!

The European Parliament has held elections for its MEPs every 5 years since 1979 and the UK has been involved in every single one.  On what level is that unelected or not democratic?!

Oh and just because you can't be bothered to do a bit of research or watch the news or read a newspaper doesn't mean that others can't!

Yea, but also as I said no one is fully conversant in the facts, including yourself.

I watch the news a lot but it never covers TTIP and spends the whole day talking about blizzards in the USA (I work in a place where we have BBC news 24 on all day, and they would literally be spend hours talking about it), so watching the news is good to an extent, but gives very filtered info. 

And newspapers! Lol. All news papers are biased and full of lies and misinformation. 

Ok I accept we do vote MEPs, be we are so far removed from any decision making and we have no say on the who is elected as president

Our own democracy is extremely flawed, so why accept another highly flawed democracy on top of that in the EU? 

Ok I accept the EU hasn't implemented anything disastrous for the UK, but it has handled serious situations appallingly - the Greece situation it acted as a bully and as I mentioned before the refugee response has been chaotic and the EU has acted in a way that is anything but a union.

And if the EU implemented a policy that we hated, what could we do?? Little to nothing as proved by Greece. 

[Tyonks]

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

What it very definitely isn't is some sort of dictatorial overlord whose orders we have to obey without us having a say.

 

Even though that comment made me laugh, I didn't mean that exactly and obviously "benign Soviet Union" is an exaggeration, BUT I do strongly believe that the EU has and certainly could act in an oppressive manner and we would have very little say in any changes. 

A better analogy is probably saying the EU is like the top manager at work who will rarely get involved with the guys at the bottom, and there are endless levels of middle management that acts as a buffer between them and the guys at the bottom. 

[Winslow Leach]

47 minutes ago, alframsey said:

Sorry the spelling mistakes and autocorrected words upset you pal, I really am.

I didn't mean the spelling, I wouldn't mock people for that.

[michael eavis' beard]

58 minutes ago, Tyonks said:

Yea, but also as I said no one is fully conversant in the facts, including yourself.

I watch the news a lot but it never covers TTIP and spends the whole day talking about blizzards in the USA (I work in a place where we have BBC news 24 on all day, and they would literally be spend hours talking about it), so watching the news is good to an extent, but gives very filtered info. 

And newspapers! Lol. All news papers are biased and full of lies and misinformation. 

Ok I accept we do vote MEPs, be we are so far removed from any decision making and we have no say on the who is elected as president

Our own democracy is extremely flawed, so why accept another highly flawed democracy on top of that in the EU? 

Ok I accept the EU hasn't implemented anything disastrous for the UK, but it has handled serious situations appallingly - the Greece situation it acted as a bully and as I mentioned before the refugee response has been chaotic and the EU has acted in a way that is anything but a union.

And if the EU implemented a policy that we hated, what could we do?? Little to nothing as proved by Greece. 

So you somehow know my level of understand of the "facts" from 1 post?!  OK!

I am not going to defend BBC News 24 but because they didn't cover a story enough for you doesn't mean that "the news" didn't cover it.  There was plenty of coverage of TTIP and TPPA and while it may not be pushed down your throat by the main 24 hours news channels it is out there if you bother to look.  As for newspapers - yeah it's all lies - don't bother 

Quick question - do you understand the concept of a parliamentary system?!  Do you think you vote for the Prime Minister of this country?!

[Tyonks]

For 

1 hour ago, michael eavis' beard said:

Quick question - do you understand the concept of a parliamentary system?!  Do you think you vote for the Prime Minister of this country?!

See 

 

2 hours ago, Tyonks said:

 

Our own democracy is extremely flawed, so why accept another highly flawed democracy on top of that in the EU? 

 

 

Perhaps if you read my posts, instead of looking for opportunities to condescend, you might learn a thing or two ;))

[KVShinedown]

2 hours ago, Tyonks said:

Ok I accept we do vote MEPs, be we are so far removed from any decision making and we have no say on the who is elected as president

We actually have more of a say on who is elected as president than most other countries, because we have far more MEPs than most other countries and the President has to be elected by the Parliament. (I'm assuming you're referring to the Commission President)

[KVShinedown]

2 hours ago, Tyonks said:

Our own democracy is extremely flawed, so why accept another highly flawed democracy on top of that in the EU? 

A fair point, but I think overall the EU has been beneficial to the UK, for me the main thing is the Working Time Directive, which I couldn't see being implemented in the UK if it had not been a member of the EU.

[alframsey]

3 hours ago, Winslow Leach said:

I didn't mean the spelling, I wouldn't mock people for that.

Fair cop brother.

[alframsey]

Anybody who argues that the EU and its legislative procedures are in anyway democratic are, frankly, completely wrong. The only elected members to any branch of the Eurpean Union hold no more than the power to scrutinise and advise and these are weak in their own right. Should the EU have an elected chamber which writes, scrutinises and approves/rejects laws? Yes, anything less is bullshit.

Ps. I realise I have completely ignored whole swathes of law making procedure but I'm pissed and can't be arsed to consider everything.

Edited February 5, 2016 by alframsey

[Winslow Leach]

1 hour ago, alframsey said:

Fair cop brother.

No worries. I don't agree with you on everything and I can be a sarky git when I want to but I wouldn't want you thinking I'd be that petty towards you.

[alframsey]

23 minutes ago, Winslow Leach said:

No worries. I don't agree with you on everything and I can be a sarky git when I want to but I wouldn't want you thinking I'd be that petty towards you.

Of course not man, you're one of the more dependable posters here brother. Plus I have a tendency to see snide posts where there is zero snide. Also I can sometimes come across as quite intolerant of people who's views don't match up with mine, I don't mean to be.

Also I'm chatting shit now, too much cocaine...

[bamber]

Charles Kennedy famously stated in a debate in the House of Commons on the EU summit in Laeken that

Quote

there are only three legislatures in the world which meet in secret: Cuba, North Korea, and the EU council of ministers

The CFP and the CAP are both basically disasters.

The EU has countless other failings.

I will most certainly be voting to stay in though.

The prospect of the Conservatives or, help us, UKIP, having unrestrained control of government policy in the UK is far more frightening than any of the failings or ills of the EU..

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, Tyonks said:

Ok I accept we do vote MEPs, be we are so far removed from any decision making and we have no say on the who is elected as president

100% inaccurate.

The British press and the tories do us an awful disservice over this.

Before the last Euro elections, each of the two major EP political groupings put forwards their president candidate - all known in advance. Those candidates made tours and presentations in most member states, laying out what they'd do if elected. The winning grouping got their candidate elected - Junker.(sp?).

The UK was pretty much ignored by this process tho ... because we've made ourselves 'outsiders'. While one of our major parties (Labour) are part of the centre-left-ish EP grouping, the party in power (tories) are not members of the centre-right grouping, having decided it's better to throw in their lot with nutters and fascists.

The UK can be a strong part of the decision making. The UK chooses not to be part of it.

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, Tyonks said:

For 

See 

Perhaps if you read my posts, instead of looking for opportunities to condescend, you might learn a thing or two ;))

Your consistency in thinking 'bad democratic systems' is fair enough.

What isn't fair enough is to complain about the lack of democracy in the EU while not being able to put our own house in order. We only have the right to the high moral ground if we're standing on it ourselves.

And it's worth noting that those who most-complain about the 'lack of democracy' in the EU are usually the same people who are utterly against making any democratic improvement within the UK.

Their complaint isn't really about democracy - that's just a handy stick to beat the EU with, to fool those not paying attention - but about them personally not holding all the levers in power in their own hands via which they can force their own ideas onto the rest of us. The very last thing their complaint is about is 'democracy'.

[Pbird81]

Love this forum, don't think there's many places on the net where people have a sensible civilised debate on this....

If referendum happens to be on Glasto thurs, think it'd be really good if the festival reminded people to register for a postal vote - no to take sides, because it's not clear cut - but the ethos of the festival is about being engaged with the future and using your influence....

Personally, I'm an in-ner - there's a lot wrong with EU system, but as pointed out here, there's a lot wrong with UK system as well (and seemingly no appetite for change there). Think Neil does make good points about Greece, outside the EU they'd probably have been just as bullied by their creditors. I don't think today's world is good for individual states (possibly excepting China & the US).

I do get the left viewpoint that the EU is a neoliberal club that entrenches that way of thinking, but if anyone is thinking that a campaign led by the Murdoch press, the nuttier fringe of the tories and UKIP is likely to replace that with anything more palatable they are likely to be disappointed....

[Gnomicide]

 

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, Pbird81 said:

If referendum happens to be on Glasto thurs, think it'd be really good if the festival reminded people to register for a postal vote - no to take sides, because it's not clear cut - but the ethos of the festival is about being engaged with the future and using your influence....

that's exactly the line this website will be taking over it, if it happens during Glasto.

While I have my own preference for how I'd like the vote to go, the most important thing of all is that we *ALL* take part in the decision. It's *OUR* decision to make.

 

11 minutes ago, Pbird81 said:

I do get the left viewpoint that the EU is a neoliberal club that entrenches that way of thinking, but if anyone is thinking that a campaign led by the Murdoch press, the nuttier fringe of the tories and UKIP is likely to replace that with anything more palatable they are likely to be disappointed....

And of course, if we don't like the direction of the EU, we as citizens of the EU are the people to help bring about a change of direction.

The idea that we just abandon something we don't like is nuts. It's like saying "I'm giving up voting" because you might not like that the result goes against you sometimes.

[Gnomicide]

Do we know if the result expected on the night/next day like in UK elections? 

[Ommadawn]

Radio 4 have picked up on this today. There was a short segment on the Today programme where they asked someone to pick a few songs that encompassed both sides of the argument. Songs he picked included 'If you leave me now' and 'We gotta get out of this place' etc.

They even managed to get a comment in about the fields being muddy.

Edit - just seen Gnomicide's post. That was pretty much the playlist.

 

Edited February 6, 2016 by Ommadawn