ATP Jabberwocky festival

[Diamond Solitaire]

Gutted about this. Had been really looking forward to it. Hopefully some of the bands will be able to organise last minute replacement shows. Really need to see Cloud Nothings

[JonSnuh]

Feel for the people who have hotels and travel booked for this.

https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1457615354501369

That's a Facebook group where people will post about replacement shows

[Diamond Solitaire]

Hopefully these Neutral Milk Hotel rumours are legit

https://www.facebook.com/events/1457615354501369/permalink/1457699017826336/

http://www.last.fm/event/3934962+Neutral+Milk+Hotel+at+The+Forum+on+15+August+2014

[mrtourette]

Sad to see ATP suffer another kick in the teeth, but yeah the whole Olympic/Victoria Park/Excel thing didn't inspire confidence.

[eFestivals]

Sad to see ATP suffer another kick in the teeth

erm ... who has kicked it in the teeth? Itself? There's no one to blame for this event's failure except the people who tried to put it on and failed.

I don't mean that as harshly as those words sound, because they'll always be some failures for as long as there's events, and if something isn't tried it will never happen.

But it is only their own fault, and it's not the first time they've run into major financial difficulties (which I know in this instance is definitely going legal).

[Babyquack]

To be fair to ATP, sure they have had more than their fair share of financial difficulties and it is their fault as it's their events that just aren't selling but they're one of the very few companies who put on festivals and gigs for pretty niche styles of music that a lot of people love. I guess the problem is that not enough people love it for it to really work.

You have to hand it to them though as I'm sure they'll come back in the not-so-distant future with another cracking line up and give it another go. They clearly love the music enough to continue even when they're down on the ground.

[mrtourette]

erm ... who has kicked it in the teeth? Itself? There's no one to blame for this event's failure except the people who tried to put it on and failed.

I don't mean that as harshly as those words sound, because they'll always be some failures for as long as there's events, and if something isn't tried it will never happen.

But it is only their own fault, and it's not the first time they've run into major financial difficulties (which I know in this instance is definitely going legal).

I wasn't suggesting that anyone else was to blame.

[eFestivals]

You have to hand it to them though as I'm sure they'll come back in the not-so-distant future with another cracking line up and give it another go. They clearly love the music enough to continue even when they're down on the ground.

I don't doubt the love.

But, ultimately, they've having others pick up the costs of their ambition, and from numbers I've seen in the past there's some other reputable companies carrying* some VERY big losses due to ATP. If my memory is correct, one debt to just one company was over £1M

(* I presume the debts I know of from the past remain unpaid, but i don't know that for certain. ATP's method of operation since those past debts i know of does suggest those past debts remain unpaid).

As time goes by and more companies are left with unpaid bills, the harder it gets for ATP to find companies that will work with them. It can't go on forever in this manner.

[Babyquack]

I don't doubt the love.

But, ultimately, they've having others pick up the costs of their ambition, and from numbers I've seen in the past there's some other reputable companies carrying* some VERY big losses due to ATP. If my memory is correct, one debt to just one company was over £1M

(* I presume the debts I know of from the past remain unpaid, but i don't know that for certain. ATP's method of operation since those past debts i know of does suggest those past debts remain unpaid).

As time goes by and more companies are left with unpaid bills, the harder it gets for ATP to find companies that will work with them. It can't go on forever in this manner.

Ah I'm not as well versed in the mechanics behind the scenes as you are Neil.

On first taking in the information you've just told me there though, it seems rather selfish of ATP to continue putting on these, perhaps overly, ambitious projects therefore not really learning from past mistakes. Therefore it's probably not a shock to you and others who have followed their career that this is continually happening to them really is it?

[eFestivals]

Ah I'm not as well versed in the mechanics behind the scenes as you are Neil.

On first taking in the information you've just told me there though, it seems rather selfish of ATP to continue putting on these, perhaps overly, ambitious projects therefore not really learning from past mistakes. Therefore it's probably not a shock to you and others who have followed their career that this is continually happening to them really is it?

The laws of nature say that if you run something for long enough it will eventually fail, so I'm not entirely sure ATP deserves any special mention above others for its occasional failures. Even the likes of Festival Republic have financial failures - tho they might well have the financial clout behind them so that all bills do get paid.

Then again, they probably run each festival each year within its own company so that the failure of one festival doesn't risk bringing everything else tumbling down - and that's a structure you'd set up for the express purpose of being able to walk away from debts. Even Glastonbury has itself self-up in that manner. It doesn't mean they will walk away from debts, but it does create a situation where they can if they think the circumstances warrant it.

Probably one of the reasons why ATP is in my mind as a regular failure is because it runs so many events - the more you run, the more chance of one of them failing. So i'm not entirely sure it's being particularly irresponsible or overly-ambitious (I'd have to see sales figures for the failures); even the best promoters sometimes get it wrong within the niches they should know.

Because most failures are the new attempts at events rather than the on-going ones, it possibly works out better overall for the music biz for ATP to keep on bouncing back - because they'd probably be greater losses from continual new operators trying to work the same niche.

But anyway, in this particular case we've been privvy to some non-public-domain goings-on which suggested that the event was in difficulties so we knew this one was probably coming.

[the wonderwhy]

Guessing you knew (or had an idea) about all this Neil?

http://www.I'M A DESPERATE SPAMMER.com/latest/news/14820

[the wonderwhy]

Oh and NMH are indeed playing The Forum on Friday

[eFestivals]

Guessing you knew (or had an idea) about all this Neil?

http://www.I'M A DESPERATE SPAMMER.com/latest/news/14820

not specifically that, nope. I'm aware of an ATP/Jabberwocky 'supplier' who is already a step or two down the legal path.

I'm not surprised to hear the ticketing situation is as Dash are saying tho. ATP were probably using Dash precisely because Dash would give them the money straight away, which the more-normal 'big' agents would not (now, at least) - I know that one has been caught by ATP before.

Dash say "We are very keen to learn where the money has gone!", but that's a bit disengenious of them. They know precisely why ATP needed the ticketing money handed over to them as the tickets were sold, and it didn't seem to bother them then that the ticket buyers money was being put at risk.

[Diamond Solitaire]

http://jabberwockyfallout.com/

This website has all the info on any last minute shows being arranged for this weekend. Got tickets for Neutral Milk Hotel on Friday night and then Cloud Nothings, Hookworms and Speedy Ortiz on Saturday night. Hoping Liars announce something for Saturday afternoon

[zero000]

This is a good article on ATP pre-jabberwocky, from the sounds of it the company is an absolute shambles:

http://www.thestoolpigeon.co.uk/features/feature-tomorrows-world.html

I appreciate the idea of catering to such a niche market, but the numerous fuck ups have turned it into a bit of a joke. Hence why no major ticket companies were selling tickets this time around. I mean who the fuck are Dash?

[Tuna]

Won't be surprised to see ATP declare bankruptcy (again). I'd love to know all their figures and whatnot for this - it really doesn't add up at all.

[eFestivals]

This is a good article on ATP pre-jabberwocky, from the sounds of it the company is an absolute shambles:

http://www.thestoolpigeon.co.uk/features/feature-tomorrows-world.html

I appreciate the idea of catering to such a niche market, but the numerous fuck ups have turned it into a bit of a joke. Hence why no major ticket companies were selling tickets this time around. I mean who the fuck are Dash?

Thanks for that.

It was the massive debts owed to big ticketing companies that I was aware of from the past.

From reading that, it confirms what I was thinking - that ATP are likely to have now run out of chances.

Within that piece it's interesting that Hogan wouldn't confirm where the cash had come from to buy back the brand. My guess would be that it came from his "own" pocket - tho with his own pocket having been stuffed full with big wages &/or dividends that have been taken from the unprofitable ATP business in the first place.

It's actually quite easy to manipulate company law to a person's own financial advantage, if that person is so inclined and isn't worried about leaving unpaid debts behind them. There's plenty of serial bankrupt-ers of companies, who always seem to be personally loaded (in fact, I know there's at least one in the festival websites game). Whether that's how ATP have been working things I've no idea, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised to find out that it had.... anyone know if Hogan lives it up, has a flash car, etc?

[atomised]

ATP reiterating today that it was dash tickets that took the money for tickets so should be refunding it. Looks like this will get messy

[eFestivals]

ATP reiterating today that it was dash tickets that took the money for tickets so should be refunding it. Looks like this will get messy

That's laughable by ATP, if ATP had Dash hand it the ticket money that Dash had collected on ATP's behalf - which is certainly what Dash have claimed.

[zahidf]

ATP are apparently promoting some of the replacement gigs...

[eFestivals]

ATP are apparently promoting some of the replacement gigs...

who's doing the ticketing...?

[atomised]

I'd be worried about paying money for anything in the ATP brand now, I would think they've had more than enough chances

[dentalplan]

ATP are apparently promoting some of the replacement gigs...

Are you sure? I don't think I've seen any and it looks like some artists like Deafheaven are trying to distance the events from the company.

[jump]

Are you sure? I don't think I've seen any and it looks like some artists like Deafheaven are trying to distance the events from the company.

who's doing the ticketing...?

http://www.atpfestival.com/home.php

From the site "ATP presents" and Dash are the ones selling tixs for it;

Edited August 14, 2014 by jump

[dentalplan]

Those aren't replacement gigs. Those were extra gigs probably sorted when they were booked.