WWE

[luckysalt]

The problem with WWE and you guys mentioning above stale wrestlers, is simple, there's no WCW.

In the 80's and 90's wrestlers would switch between NWA/WCW and WWF 

EVERYONE DID.

Hogan, Big Show, Rick Rude, Ric Flair, Earthquake, Boss Man, Dusty Rhodes, LOD, Faarooq, Pillman, Vader, Goldust, Tugboat, Austin, Bulldog, Sid, Savage, Piper, Bret, Lugar, Arn Anderson, Windham, Benoit, IRS, Ted Dibiase, Warrior, Jake Roberts, Hall, Nash, Kid, Jericho, Foley... I could go on and on and on.

The only guys who didn't move really was Taker who came over from WCW when he was small time, HHH ditto, Shawn Michales and Sting AND Sting has now. 

If WCW was still around with the size and money it had, if WWE had an equal, you wouldn't see these guys stay around for ages, back in the 90's if a character got stale he switched brands. WWE kinda did this when they had Raw and Smackdown as seperate brands, but now they don't. 

So you have Kane there since 1997, Big Show since 1999, Jericho since 1999, Cena since 2002? 

Sheamus, Swagger, Ziggler, etc, 

Back in mid 2000's TNA had some money still and were trying to compete, look at all the guys who went there. Dudleys, Sting, Kurt Angle, Christian, R Truth, Roaddogg, Xpac, Billy Gunn, Goldust, Booker T, Kevin Nash, Scott Steiner, etc. 

These days they can't offer WWE guys what they're getting, so these guys are happy being stale in WWE. 

Christian im sure took a pay cut when he quit WWE for TNA, but he wanted to grow as a performer and he was pushed to word title level and when he returned to WWE, he took the world title there. That was a successful move.

We really DO need TNA to get an investment and be able to TRY and compete at least on money, im sure guys who are fed up like Barrett, Ziggler, Swagger etc would make the jump over then after all. But it ain't gunna happen.

But yeah, there's a reason the Attitude era was so good, there were two strong companys full of talent who were getting the best of them and if they weren't they switched sides. 

[When Jokers Attack]

50 minutes ago, jump said:

This "the guy" thing hasn't really worked since Hogan, even when Austin was "the guy" it was putting the belt on Foley that cemented the start of WWF winning the Wars. Have lots of the "the guy" so every segement is great.

I totally agree. Instead of "the guy", what I meant was as a world champion. Only people you can put the belt on right now are Reigns, Lesnar and Seth Rollins. Anyone else it just looks stupid because of how they have been used. When Brock Lesnar finally loses clean to Reigns, it will feel important, because he has been booked strong.

[Andre91]

Seth Rollins is 'the guy'. 

[luckysalt]

2 minutes ago, Andre91 said:

Seth Rollins is 'the guy'. 

Agreed, can't wait for him to be back, by far for me, as a singles guy, the best on the roster for the past decade and he's only going to get better.

[jparx]

Talking of 'the guy' - just watched NXT from last night and man, Nakamura is head and shoulders above everyone in that company. I've been a fan of his for years, but it's incredible how easily his style and charisma has translated to WWE. I knew he would do well, but he's blowing away expectations. It's a shame they don't utilise managers anymore, because if you paired him with someone like Cornette he could be the biggest star in wrestling. 

Reigns needs to study Nakamura to see what charisma is all about. He's effortlessly cool. 

On a side note - also thought Tye Dillinger came across well in that match. He didn't get completely blown away by Shinsuke's charisma.

[jparx]

On 13/04/2016 at 1:38 PM, Andre91 said:

Who do people think the assumed third man will be joining Anderson & Gallows? I'm going for AJ. The whole Usos thing ties in nicely with Reigns vs. AJ. 

I think The Usos should turn heel with Reigns though. They're such a boring face team. We have Enzo & Cass, New Day and Lucha Dragons as face teams. The Usos forming some kind of Samoan Dynasty type shtick with Reigns would be something fresh I think. 

Have the Bullet Club as Tweeners or badass faces. Like The Shield became. 

I'd like think to they are here for AJ too. Makes sense they would attack Roman's cousins if that's the case. Only trouble with that theory is AJ kinda has to the win the title, or else this big new heel stable will fall pretty flat on its face, but there's no way Reigns is dropping that title so quickly. I'm excited to see what Karl Anderson will do in WWE though. He's a very underrated performer all around in my book. Strong mic skills, knows his character well and can have a really great match when given the chance. I'd like to see him go solo at some point down the road.

Turning Reigns and the Usos heel is a great idea, but there's no way three of the biggest merch sellers and charity workers in the company are all turning together. It's a shame that's what drives their creative, because I completely agree a Samoan Dynasty deal would be great. Hell, you could even bring up Joe as part of it, and lead to the eventual split and feud between Reigns and Joe.

[Uncle Liam]

1 hour ago, luckysalt said:

 

We really DO need TNA to get an investment and be able to TRY and compete at least on money, im sure guys who are fed up like Barrett, Ziggler, Swagger etc would make the jump over then after all. But it ain't gunna happen.

TNA is done and I for one am incredibly grateful for it.

The thing is though, there are plenty of places to go. New Japan for one, which will take proven performers (and sometimes unproven!). Lucha Underground, ROH, an absolutely thriving independent scene.And let's not forget the conventions, not just Wrestlecon, there seems to be one of these each week. In terms of a global industry, pro wrestling is booming. Wade Barrett knows this, and he's getting the hell out of dodge. And I believe Rey Rey is still charging $20000 to do a 'match' which consists of a lot of stalling, playing to the crowd, a 619 and a west coast pop. Now not that everyone could charge that amount of money, but the potential is there and these people will get bookings. 

Look at what leaving WWE has done for Drew Galloway. And when Daniel Bryan got fired that time, he wasn't bothered because he knew with his name and tv exposure he could make more working the independent circuit. 
 

[Uncle Liam]

3 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I think there's a danger you end up filling the roster with a load of workhorse internet darlings. Wwe should never be about catering for just the hardcore fans. When at its best wrestlers of all shapes, sizes, abilities, characters and backgrounds can flourish. WWE has never just been about the quality of wrestling and never should be.

I want to see the great workers, the meatheads, the giant's. There's more than enough time for everyone 

The thing is though, 20 years ago, Austin and Foley, as well as Shawn and Bret to a certain extent, would've been considered internet darlings. 

The thing is today though, pretty much everybody is a hardcore fan to some degree. No one watches the show and moves on with their life, they to go Wikipedia and find out about the newest wrestlers history, then they follow them on twitter and found out what they are like as people. They know who is a good 'worker' and who 'isn't.' Today's audience is an audience which can't be worked as such. Those CM Punk chants two years on are telling, it's a verbal rejection of the product. Reigns getting booed isn't fully an indictment on him, it's an indictment on him being the 'chosen one.' Chant's of "We don't want you" are directed at Vince McMahon as much as they are at Reigns. So in that sense you have fill the roster up with workhouse internet darlings because the crowd is too smart to see through anything else. 

 

[pink_triangle]

5 hours ago, When Jokers Attack said:

WWE should cater to the hardcore crowd as they are the ones that will stick with them through the good and the bad. I'm not saying do everything the fans want but at least keep them happy from time to time. Samoa Joe should be on the main roster right now, actually if there is going to be a third man with Gallows/Anderson then it could be him. 

I do agree there is a place on the roster for the comedy relief wrestlers and the big men who aren't great workers but there is no reason some of the best wrestlers in the world can't also be on the main roster instead of in NXT. Looking back 10-12 years ago, what is it that people remember? The workhorses like, Eddie, Angle, Benoit, HBK. Not crap like The Boogeyman and Heidenreich. The wrestling should be the most important aspect of the show, especially when you actually have some of the best under contract.

I think the WWE caters for the hardcore fans as much as they ever have. In recent time they have brought up the likes of Zayn, Owens, Styles, Anderson, Gallows etc. However I cant agree with a purge of people who don't have the internet seal of approval to leave a company only including workhorses with an acceptable indie appeal.

I wouldn't argue that theres benefit having great wrestlers on the main roster, however as I have said earlier theres only so many people you can push at one time. If you have the 20 most popular indie stars on the WWE roster, the fans will still end up pissed because at least 10 aren't getting pushed.

I don't think your comparison is particularly good one. I could equally say who do people remember Ultimate Warrior and Andre or Tito Santana and Rick Martell.  The likes of Eddie, Angle, Benoit all played a role during that time period as did people like Kane and the Big Show.  I also don't agree that the wrestling is the most important thing, I'm currently working my way through the WWE PPV (currently 2003) and most of the main events with the likes of Rock and Austin were punch, kicks, brawls outside the ring and a few chair shots.  The most important thing is building up characters that people want to see win or lose and at that's not happening now

[pink_triangle]

4 hours ago, luckysalt said:

.

But yeah, there's a reason the Attitude era was so good, there were two strong companys full of talent who were getting the best of them and if they weren't they switched sides. 

I don't think its just the competition about switching sides, its the competition in general.  WWE are able to coast, play it safe and make decisions in favour of finances but in detriment to the product like the 3 hours raws and they know they can.

I think in terms of talent there is very little wrong with the WWE roster.  I think they have a decent amount of variety and most are capable.  I think there are things that can be done to help get them more over.  You listen to JRs commentary and compare it to todays product and you can see what a disadvantage todays stars have.  Also a big part of getting a wrestler over in the past was the finishing move, but these no longer matter as they rarely finish off people these days.  I think these are 2 things that could be sorted pretty easily.

Also looking back to the attitude era the fan made the show so much more enjoyable they seemed far more willing to go with the product, rather than take over the product.  The whole "this is awesome chanting", booing the hall of fame and disrespect shown to some of the wrestlers negatively effect the viewing experience to me. When you hear people chant "you cant wrestle" to someone like Kane, they clearly have no understanding about what wrestling is.

3 hours ago, Andre91 said:

Seth Rollins is 'the guy'. 

He could be "the guy", but if we are talking present tense he is a world champion who hasn't drawn a dime.  Certainly has the talent, and I hope he has used his time off to watch some of the greats and add some psychology to his game.

 

3 hours ago, jparx said:

 

Turning Reigns and the Usos heel is a great idea, but there's no way three of the biggest merch sellers and charity workers in the company are all turning together. It's a shame that's what drives their creative, because I completely agree a Samoan Dynasty deal would be great. Hell, you could even bring up Joe as part of it, and lead to the eventual split and feud between Reigns and Joe.

I think if people are among the top merch sellers its perfectly acceptable to ask why.  The product needs to attract the next generation of fans, theres enough wrestlers and time to devote some to the kids.

 

2 hours ago, Uncle Liam said:

The thing is today though, pretty much everybody is a hardcore fan to some degree. No one watches the show and moves on with their life, they to go Wikipedia and find out about the newest wrestlers history, then they follow them on twitter and found out what they are like as people. They know who is a good 'worker' and who 'isn't.' Today's audience is an audience which can't be worked as such. Those CM Punk chants two years on are telling, it's a verbal rejection of the product. Reigns getting booed isn't fully an indictment on him, it's an indictment on him being the 'chosen one.' Chant's of "We don't want you" are directed at Vince McMahon as much as they are at Reigns. So in that sense you have fill the roster up with workhouse internet darlings because the crowd is too smart to see through anything else. 
 

I'm certainly not against the internet darlings being on the roster. As I have said to me the roster is at its best when its varied.  There have been great wrestler who have joined the WWE with years of experience abroad or in the indies and there have been greats who have had almost no experience.  The WWE have created stars from wrestling, bodybuilding and sport backgrounds, I see no reason for a one size fits all attitude.

If the hardcore fans won accept anyone without 5 years experience in ring of honour or Japan then play on it and make these people your heels.  As the Miz mentoring Daniel Bryan in the WWE showed, the hardcore fans don't think they can be played, but they definitely can!

I think the WWE need to look to the future as well as the present. The hardcore fans will moan about the product and keep watching. I still believe that  when (or if) WWE has another boom it will be by attracting people who are looking for more than a 5 star classic

[pink_triangle]

6 hours ago, When Jokers Attack said:

The problem with Ambrose is, he has been booked like shit so doesn't look believable as the guy, If he was to challenge Reigns, No one would think he could win because the reality is, he never does win big matches. Bray Wyatt, Ambrose, Ziggler have all been wasted and meant nothing. Hopefully this face turn is he start of a real Wyatt push, once he is back from injury that is.

 

For all the Ambrose love (and I'm a fan) if I'm listing the greatest wrestlers never to win the big one, I'm not putting him near the top of the list.  He is someone who is very good at a lot of the things that make a star, but I'm not sure what he is great at.

[When Jokers Attack]

18 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I don't think your comparison is particularly good one. I could equally say who do people remember Ultimate Warrior and Andre or Tito Santana and Rick Martell.  

My comparison was only to 12 years ago, not 25. It was a completely different time back then. People watched WCW/NWA for the best matches. Although there was a lot of junk on their shows, they still had Flair, Sting, Steamboat, Windham. Steiners etc. WWF was more of a cartoon and not as serious. Also Warrior and Andre are two legends unlike the two I mentioned. My point is today's wrestling fans are more likely to remember the workers who have great matches and not the comedy stuff like The Social Outcasts, 3MB, Los Matadores etc. 

[jparx]

I agree about appealing to a younger generation or fans but the problem is kids don't like to be pandered to. It's fine when you're 8 years old, but these fans are getting into their teens and start thinking wrestling is lame. The last time they acquired hordes of new fans was when Steve Austin was on top, a man who was 'cool' and aimed at a mature audience. Kids like what they aren't supposed to like. Its partly why South Park was so popular. It was taboo snd therefore drew kids in. Kids these days are playing CoD ffs. I think they would rather support a badass heel Reigns than an 'sufferin' sucotash' spouting dweeb.

The Usos and their bright colours and facepaint will attract the attention of kids but they will soon grow out of it. If you don't pander to the kids and focus on presenting a 'cool' product, the kids will not only become fans but they will STAY fans. I'm not saying go back to boobs and swearing, just don't present a lame kid friendly product. You just need compelling, genuine characters that go on interesting journeys. Look at Bayley - sure she's 'kid friendly' but she's also incredibly honest and genuine. The Usos clearly are much cooler than their gimmicks would have you believe.

I've lost track of what my original point was...

[pink_triangle]

18 minutes ago, When Jokers Attack said:

My comparison was only to 12 years ago, not 25. It was a completely different time back then. People watched WCW/NWA for the best matches. Although there was a lot of junk on their shows, they still had Flair, Sting, Steamboart, Windham. Steiners etc. WWF was more of a cartoon and not as serious. Also Warrior and Andre are two legends unlike the two I mentioned. My point is today's wrestling fans are more likely to remember the workers who have great matches and not the comedy stuff like The Social Outcasts, 3MB, Los Matadores etc. 

Ok but you could mention someone like Roaddog who had about 5 moves, slightly later than some of the names you mentioned, but not a significant difference.  The new age outlaws (lets hope enzo and cass are the 2016 NAO) were a big part of that era as was the godfather and Rikishi.  People wont remember the likes of the social outcasts and 3MB because they aren't over.  People loved the attitude era because so many people were over, some great wrestlers and some not. If they can build up comedy characters that get over, they will be remembered.  I don't think its a case of good workers or good characters, if you can get them over then you can have a combination of both.

Edited April 14, 2016 by pink_triangle

[Andre91]

AJ Styles 
Finn Balor 
Samoa Joe 
Karl Anderson 
Luke Gallows 
Paige 

Who I think should comprise the WWE version of the Bullet Club. Have AJ as your guy in the WWE Title picture. Have Finn & Joe go for the mid-card titles. Obviously Anderson & Gallows as the tag team specialists and Paige as their badass girl. There has been lots of talk about Joe & Finn coming up to the main roster and I think this would make perfect sense. 

This could eventually lead to an AJ/Finn feud over true leadership of the stable. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by Andre91

[CHRLY]

The Official WWE YouTube page used the term "Bullet Club" - that's interesting. I hope we get it called that instead of Bulletproof or Balór Club.

[When Jokers Attack]

9 hours ago, CHRLY said:

The Official WWE YouTube page used the term "Bullet Club" - that's interesting. I hope we get it called that instead of Bulletproof or Balór Club.

NJPW own the rights, so I doubt it. Bullet Club are still together and they sell an incredible amount of merch. Next time you watch raw. Count the amount of bullet club t-shirts, it's crazy popular.

[CHRLY]

57 minutes ago, When Jokers Attack said:

NJPW own the rights, so I doubt it. Bullet Club are still together and they sell an incredible amount of merch. Next time you watch raw. Count the amount of bullet club t-shirts, it's crazy popular.

Oh yeah I know, but it's strange for it to be used in official WWE programming isn't it? If they were going to call them Bulletproof or whatever why would they use Bullet Club here? 

 

[When Jokers Attack]

26 minutes ago, CHRLY said:

Oh yeah I know, but it's strange for it to be used in official WWE programming isn't it? If they were going to call them Bulletproof or whatever why would they use Bullet Club here? 

 

Yeah it's weird, maybe it's why they have it as a hashtag for legal reasons, not sure.

[pink_triangle]

Konnor and Adam rose suspended for 60 days, that's going to cause big changes to the main event plans!

[CHRLY]

Well... That was fun.

The New Day were the most over thing of the night. Massive pop for them and the most t shirts around from what I could see.

Reigns reaction was hostile. 

The Miz is amazing.

[jump]

Yeah Reigns got the biggest reaction the whole night, he's become my 10 year old baby brother's favourite wrestler at the moment (mostly because his name is Roman too plus he's the champ) and I had to explain to him why they were booing him as he got really excited when Reigns came out but got really startled about the crowd's reaction. My brother kept looking behind him for most the night when he heard people shout stuff like "Roman sucks" etc thinking it was about him.

Jericho was fantastic, always an entertaining dick the whole night and Cesaro who I've always been lukewarm on managed to really draw me in.

Raw really does need to be shorter as with the dark match at the end and Superstars on before Raw it felt like a slog at times, Crews' match had no energy until he started pulling some flashy moves and the long opening promo feels worst live.

Edited April 19, 2016 by jump

[pink_triangle]

The trouble is finances dictate it can't be shorter. The best they can hope is NXT continues to grow and they convince the tv companies tI allocate an hour from raw.

[Uncle Liam]

The finances only dictate it because Vince is greedy! 

They could go down to two hours if they wanted to, Hunter is even on the network saying he'd like to go to two hours. 

Personally think NXT going on proper TV would be a disaster. It needs to be low budget, low pressure, simple developmental. If it goes on TV it'll end up like ECW (or like the first few years of NXT).

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, Uncle Liam said:

The finances only dictate it because Vince is greedy! 

They could go down to two hours if they wanted to, Hunter is even on the network saying he'd like to go to two hours. 

Personally think NXT going on proper TV would be a disaster. It needs to be low budget, low pressure, simple developmental. If it goes on TV it'll end up like ECW (or like the first few years of NXT).

He is a businessman who's money has helped make his family and others very wealthy and provided a living to those further down the chain. I can guarantee if it was our money at risk, that we would think about the product very differently. They could cut it by an hour and find ratings increase, alternatively it could make no difference and they have the same fanbase and less money .

Moving on slightly from the which wrestlers would you release discussion, which 3 non roster changes would you make to improve the wwe.Mine.

1. Protect finishing moves and get them over. Make it very rare for people to kick out. Wrestlers and agents made to come up with different ways of generating excitement.

2. Find some commentators who can play a role in getting over talent. Whether that's changing direction of current ones or overhauling the current team.

3. Make ppvs feel more important, more backstage pre match unscripted interviews. Better pre match video packages explaining rivalry.