Capitalism looking to space for new funds.....

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Exactly. Do you think these ants give a shit if their colonies were destroying the foundations to human houses, making them collapse and killing todlers in their sleep. Or if their little ant factories are causing a hole in the ozone layer causing old ladies to die of skin cancer.

No siree.

They'll keep on eating, raping and pillaging nature until the worlds stripped of goodness, and then they'd build a rocket and get the fuck out of here too.

Ants, wasps, bees, termites, jellyfish, starfish, dolphins, elephants. They're all the same. Selfish little pricks

[kaosmark2]

there are many things about us that makes us unique...

other animals are unaware their own 'self'. If they were destroying their environment, they wouldn't be aware of it.

[Ed209]

playing devils advocate here ... but from a biological point of view, why should we, or any other species give a shit about what they do to their environment? As I said, ours, and every other animals purpose to existence is to survive to reproduce. That's it. That's all we're programmed to care about.

I'd argue that human kind has only really become concerned with what we're doing to our planet because ozone holes, global warming, rising sea levels etc... will impact our species chances of survivaly in the future.

[kaosmark2]

I didn't say other animals don't destroy their environment, I said they be unaware of it. We're either in denial or sticking our fingers in our ears.

[kaosmark2]

I'd argue that human kind has only really become concerned with what we're doing to our planet because ozone holes, global warming, rising sea levels etc... will impact our species chances of survivaly in the future.

[Ed209]

Pretty much. Even things like rainforest damage could be self-interested because destroying biodiversity screws us over considering that as omnivores we require a large range of food.

[Ed209]

well there you go.. we're acting against our instinct to survive, that's why we're starting to think it might be important to change

[Ed209]

which could mean going one instinct against another... actually going against our 'original' instinct (propogating.... to further our species) in order to preserve our ultimate instinct .....to survive

interesting

I doubt many ants are contemplating such ideas

but... maybe they are

Edited April 25, 2012 by Ed209

[LondonTom]

[eFestivals]

there are many things about us that makes us unique...

Nope, just one. Opposable thumbs.

other animals are unaware their own 'self'.

utter bull. That idea is simply one from human arrogance.

As time goes by, more and more discoveries get to further prove that's just an arrogant human idea.

[eFestivals]

I didn't say other animals don't destroy their environment, I said they'd be unaware of it.

You mean like us humans were until less than 100 years ago, and have only really taken any notice of the idea for less than the last 20 years (and even then we're taking only a small amount of notice)?

If other animals ever manage destruction on the same scale, I'm sure they'll wake up just before the apocalypse they'll cause just as we have.

[Purple Monkey]

Burn the land and boil the sea

You can't take the sky from me

Oh wait.

[eFestivals]

I'm not saying other animals wouldn't do it, I'm just saying they're not.

One of the ways we know and are aware of what we are doing to the planet, is the communications we have and the tools to understand the information... satellites, computers, etc. It's not down to an intrinsic awareness, it's just information.

Are we doing it then?

Sure, we have the info, but we're not acting on it. We're carrying on in the same way that we ever were, with a belief that growth can expand infinitely, and that us humans are clever enough to manage any and all consequences from that.

There's some who understand it, but very few of those are acting on what they know and understand. They get sucked in with a misplaced belief that they can have a greater impact on changing things from the inside than on the outside, and end up going along with everyone else to conform to modern society.

The very first thing that needs acting against is population growth but that's not even on the agenda currently. Instead we get told/think that changing a few light bulbs in our houses in the west has got it covered.

[Purple Monkey]

Are we doing it then?

Sure, we have the info, but we're not acting on it. We're carrying on in the same way that we ever were, with a belief that growth can expand infinitely, and that us humans are clever enough to manage any and all consequences from that.

There's some who understand it, but very few of those are acting on what they know and understand. They get sucked in with a misplaced belief that they can have a greater impact on changing things from the inside than on the outside, and end up going along with everyone else to conform to modern society.

The very first thing that needs acting against is population growth but that's not even on the agenda currently. Instead we get told/think that changing a few light bulbs in our houses in the west has got it covered.

[eFestivals]

what, fucking up the planet...? I think we are

ah, soz. I thought you were saying we were dealing with the issues of fucking things up.

the Green Party are trying to raise the population issue, aren't they?

I've brought it up before on here, and had most people jump down my throat in horror at the thought of it

http://www.populationmatters.org/

I think that the reason that the population issue is taboo is the result of the condemnation that was handed out to China for the population policy they had until around 10-ish years ago.

It became one of the sticks to beat communism with (and probably the biggest stick that China was beaten with), and as a result the idea that controlling population is the evil work of totalitarians without a shred of sense has stuck. Which just goes to show the short-term-ism that is always at the forefront of western politicians minds.

[kaosmark2]

I didn't say other animals don't destroy their environment, I said they'd be unaware of it. We're either in denial or sticking our fingers in our ears.

[kaosmark2]

you're right....

it's just that because we're so dominant, that compared to other animals, what they're doing isn't anywhere nearly as devastating. Obviously it is to them, and maybe if they were aware of what they were doing, they could do something about it...?

I don't think it's arrogance to conclude that humans are the biggest threat to, not just us but, massive parts of the earth's eco-system

[kaosmark2]

Does it matter whether we're special or not?

(PS... the edit function isn't working for me...)

[eFestivals]

(PS... the edit function isn't working for me...)

am looking into it.

The edit function definitely works as it should, with members able to edit their posts.

However, there's a time limit to how long a post is able to be edited for. I can't actually tell you what it is tho, because I can't find the setting for it in the control panel. ... I think it's 10 minutes, but it might be 5 mins.

I guess that the post you were trying to edit has exceeded the time limit. Could you please tell how how long after making the post you wanted to edit you discovered that you couldn't edit it?

[kaosmark2]

fair point...

I don't mean we're special in a particularly positive way. I think we're messing our 'home' more than anything else is

maybe that's ok too. We came, we invented, we destroyed ourselves.. end of story?

surviving is noble enough for me

Lots of people don't want to simply survive, they want more

and more

and more

[eFestivals]

can't remember. I just tried editing my last post (5 minutes ago), and I get the window to edit, but not the option to post the edited bit. There's just a large space below the 'box'

maybe I've changed my settings somehow..?

that sounds more like a browser problem of some kind, of the editor not loading properly.

[Purple Monkey]

It's amazing how much people indulge in confirmation bias when it comes to these big issues.

Animals damage the planet, yes. Anything that consumes for survival will do that. However in the animal kingdom the rate of damage is still in equilibrium with the natural process of regeneration.

Humans are damaging way beyond the rate of repair. If we want a future we really need to restore the balance between damage and restoration.

I had the strangest debate with someone over wind farms - they said the damage they cause to install is a problem and it isn't worth the hassle because they won't solve the energy crisis over night. What?

It's this crazy notion that alternatives must eradicate destruction altogether or it isnt worth bothering with at all that baffles the shit out of me.

Like when people hear about resource-based economies and they dismiss them outright from a few kinks in the theory - even when they see and acknowledge the much bigger flaws in the current system. It's a crazy clusterfuck of fear, laziness and ignorance.

This won't change until people have their values changed, willfully or forcefully, and I fear it will take a disaster of epic proportions to do that.

Evolutions failed experiment will end the day the Universes immune system kicks in and gets rid of us, like any other agent of balance.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Purple Monkey

[kaosmark2]

It's amazing how much people indulge in confirmation bias when it comes to these big issues.

Animals damage the planet, yes. Anything that consumes for survival will do that. However in the animal kingdom the rate of damage is still in equilibrium with the natural process of regeneration.

Humans are damaging way beyond the rate of repair. If we want a future we really need to restore the balance between damage and restoration.

I had the strangest debate with someone over wind farms - they said the damage they cause to install is a problem and it isn't worth the hassle because they won't solve the energy crisis over night. What?

It's this crazy notion that alternatives must eradicate destruction altogether or it isnt worth bothering with at all that baffles the shit out of me.

Like when people hear about resource-based economies and they dismiss them outright from a few kinks in the theory - even when they see and acknowledge the much bigger flaws in the current system. It's a crazy clusterfuck of fear, laziness and ignorance.

This won't change until people have their values changed, willfully or forcefully, and I fear it will take a disaster of epic proportions to do that.

Evolutions failed experiment will end the day the Universes immune system kicks in and gets rid of us, like any other agent of balance.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I don't know if this is still true, but 5 years ago it was the case that the amount of energy required to generate and transport the plastic to build a windfarm is equivalent to what a typical one would generate over 25 years. Their typical lifespan was estimated to be 20 years before significant repairs were needed. In such a case, they WOULDN'T be worth it. (I think the technology and efficiency has improved significantly since then though). Similar with biofuels/burning crops for energy - the amount of energy used to create and transport fertiliser is greater than the amount generated from it. Alternative energies for the sake of it aren't necessarily worth the cost (energy, not financial).

What you know comes with an element of comfort. The unknown is scary, hence the problems.

I don't think people's values are skewed, I think the systems screwed and people feel helpless to change.

We've still got a chance as a species. We just need to take it.

[kaosmark2]

Huh. Fair enough.