318 replies to this topic

[feral chile]

grumpyhack, on 09 February 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

What's this ad then?

would you like to expand on that?

[The Nal]

feral chile, on 09 February 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

would you like to expand on that?

I will

[tonyblair]

feral chile, on 09 February 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

I'm sure I wouldn't be so open minded if I were confronted with the very real dilemma of having someone close to me working in the sex industry, it's easy to be impartial when it doesn't affect you.

If we didn't have such an immature attitude to sex, maybe we wouldn't have such a disrespectful attitude to the peopke involved in the sex industry.

Is it possible that large parts of the (sex) industry exist because of our attitude to sex..?

I don't have any disrespect for the people in the industry (I think..), my feelings - as confused as they are - are probably more to do with the fact that so much of the industry is 'needed'.

As tittilating as it is to have a woman stripping in a club in front of you, whenever I've been in a room of men watching a stripper, I've felt almost unbearably uncomfortable.

maybe I'm a secret facist and thinks everyone should be like me...

feral chile, on 09 February 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

We're still a bit Carry On in our oh so British attitude to sex. On the one side, at least, and a bit puritanical on the other. I think both attitudes are linked.

definitely...

[tonyblair]

Ed209, on 09 February 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

Eating and drinking are also the most basic parts of our existence, yet humans feel a need to turn that into something much much more, paying hundreds of pounds to have some fish eggs or whatever. its what we do, so many things are simple, but we extend them and turn them into a whole industry and art form.

that's very interesting, and fits in with feral chile's point that we (British) seem to struggle to find a middle ground. I love food, and cooking, but when I see chefs frothing at the mouth over some rare speciality dish, inside I'm screaming "it's food, we eat it, people are dying because thay can't get any of it"...
yes, I get a bit over dramatic...

Ed209, on 09 February 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

Unfortunately exploitation happens in all walks of life, the food industry is no different - be it with illegal kitchen staff, third world farmers or the animals themselves. It just so happens that the exploitation in the sex industry can be particularly nasty and damaging.

In theory though, if consenting adults want to take the basic part of our existence that is sex, and create an industry (e.g. prostitution) and/or art form (e.g. pole dancing) around it, then I see that as a natural human trait and I don't have a problem with it.

those 2 points don't seem to 'fit'

[feral chile]

The Nal, on 10 February 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

I will

[feral chile]

tonyblair, on 10 February 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

that's very interesting, and fits in with feral chile's point that we (British) seem to struggle to find a middle ground. I love food, and cooking, but when I see chefs frothing at the mouth over some rare speciality dish, inside I'm screaming "it's food, we eat it, people are dying because thay can't get any of it"...
yes, I get a bit over dramatic...


those 2 points don't seem to 'fit'

All down to values innit. We place importance on the top end of cuisine, turn it into an art form, and because we have a social order, those who can afford the cost of rarities/delicacies feel special and gain prestige among their peers. Even people working within who might be getting exploited in relation to their working conditions, might take pride in where they work.

The lower end, and the sex industry, is less valued, the greasy spoon and sex clubs are looked down upon, and people almost condone exploitation in these places, because they're not quite respectable. So it's almost like the people within shouldn't expect protection.

We should have more acceptance and closer regulation, so that people feeling exploited can feel they have rights.

[tonyblair]

feral chile, on 10 February 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

All down to values innit. We place importance on the top end of cuisine, turn it into an art form, and because we have a social order, those who can afford the cost of rarities/delicacies feel special and gain prestige among their peers. Even people working within who might be getting exploited in relation to their working conditions, might take pride in where they work.

The lower end, and the sex industry, is less valued, the greasy spoon and sex clubs are looked down upon, and people almost condone exploitation in these places, because they're not quite respectable. So it's almost like the people within shouldn't expect protection.

We should have more acceptance and closer regulation, so that people feeling exploited can feel they have rights.

consistency, and a lack of it seems to permeate a lot of it

family and friends together last night for my mums 82nd birthday... conversation turned to those 'kids' who won £40 million on the lottery, then the inevitable what would we do if... etc etc... ended up by saying there are millions of people in the world who could be having the same conversation, only instead of them saying.. "oooh, I'd have a yacht, couple of houses for my family, etc etc", they're saying "we'd have a home with running water, enough food every day, heating... etc etc"... lots of things many of us already take for granted

funny ol' world

[Rufus Gwertigan]

feral chile, on 10 February 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

The lower end, and the sex industry, is less valued, the greasy spoon and sex clubs are looked down upon, and people almost condone exploitation in these places, because they're not quite respectable. So it's almost like the people within shouldn't expect protection.

We should have more acceptance and closer regulation, so that people feeling exploited can feel they have rights.

I think maybe it is from what I have experienced at a young age but I have always seen those around me treat those in the sex industry with nothing but respect. Admittedly a lot is based on experiences on the continent but even so. In saying that I was shocked with the reaction of my son a while back. We where getting an early morning train and we where outside the station whilst he had a smoke. He was approached by a woman for a fag and I got chatting asking her how was business and how 5am seems a strange time. Cut to the chase we went off and my lad asked what we were on about. When I said she was a prostitute he was gobsmacked at first, but then repulsed we had been talking with her. That attitude really shocked me and it was one I am not used to.

[feral chile]

Rufus Gwertigan, on 10 February 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

I think maybe it is from what I have experienced at a young age but I have always seen those around me treat those in the sex industry with nothing but respect. Admittedly a lot is based on experiences on the continent but even so. In saying that I was shocked with the reaction of my son a while back. We where getting an early morning train and we where outside the station whilst he had a smoke. He was approached by a woman for a fag and I got chatting asking her how was business and how 5am seems a strange time. Cut to the chase we went off and my lad asked what we were on about. When I said she was a prostitute he was gobsmacked at first, but then repulsed we had been talking with her. That attitude really shocked me and it was one I am not used to.

Anyone know how primates behave? Do they respect each other's mates? Are females without a mate communal property? And what position in the pack would they have?

I'm wondering if our sociosexual attitudes are a throwback to that. otherwise, there's no logic to it at all.

[tonyblair]

feral chile, on 10 February 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Anyone know how primates behave? Do they respect each other's mates? Are females without a mate communal property? And what position in the pack would they have?

I'm wondering if our sociosexual attitudes are a throwback to that. otherwise, there's no logic to it at all.

[Ed209]

tonyblair, on 10 February 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

those 2 points don't seem to 'fit'

Maybe I didn't explain myself very well. My point is that in theory I have no problem with a sex industry where the people involved are not being exploited. I believe it perfectly possible that the adults (men and woman) can participate willfully and contently in paid sex, pole dancing etc. They can express themselves, their art form, their trade and enjoy doing it. This i'm all for. To some people (especially british) this can seem smutty and degrading, while some people see sex no differently as any other human function, and we can build business and art around it.

Unfortunately though, as with all walks of life, exploitation exists. In the sex industry this can take particularly brutal forms.

[feral chile]

Ed209, on 10 February 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

Maybe I didn't explain myself very well. My point is that in theory I have no problem with a sex industry where the people involved are not being exploited. I believe it perfectly possible that the adults (men and woman) can participate willfully and contently in paid sex, pole dancing etc. They can express themselves, their art form, their trade and enjoy doing it. This i'm all for. To some people (especially british) this can seem smutty and degrading, while some people see sex no differently as any other human function, and we can build business and art around it.

Unfortunately though, as with all walks of life, exploitation exists. In the sex industry this can take particularly brutal forms.

Yes, exactly. in theory, what's wrong with men admiring a beautiful woman, women enjoying their own beauty, enjoying the admiration of others, etc.?

The fault lies with public attitudes to that, both from those outside the industry, and from those abusing or exploiting the girls.

Do they still have sex therapists these days? You know the ones I mean, not the talkers.

[kaosmark2]

feral chile, on 10 February 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Yes, exactly. in theory, what's wrong with men admiring a beautiful woman, women enjoying their own beauty, enjoying the admiration of others, etc.?

The fault lies with public attitudes to that, both from those outside the industry, and from those abusing or exploiting the girls.

Do they still have sex therapists these days? You know the ones I mean, not the talkers.

And vice versa.

[feral chile]

kaosmark2, on 10 February 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

And vice versa.

Quite, if you mean women appreciating a beautiful man etc.

[kaosmark2]

feral chile, on 10 February 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Quite, if you mean women appreciating a beautiful man etc.

Aye. Both genders can perv. Both genders can appreciate the attention at times. And both genders can feel objectified by such attention at times.

[tonyblair]

feral chile, on 10 February 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Yes, exactly. in theory, what's wrong with men admiring a beautiful woman, women enjoying their own beauty, enjoying the admiration of others, etc.?

The fault lies with public attitudes to that, both from those outside the industry, and from those abusing or exploiting the girls.

and the environment that creates, and pretty much encourages those attitudes

feral chile, on 10 February 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Do they still have sex therapists these days? You know the ones I mean, not the talkers.

I would imagine so....

[feral chile]

tonyblair, on 10 February 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

and the environment that creates, and pretty much encourages those attitudes

I would imagine so....

We need to stop thinking of desire as depraved and dirty. It's only if we disrespect the desired individual (I deliberately avoided using the object of desire there) that it becomes depraved and dirty.

The British are not very good at doing this. i remember when I was young getting chatted up by a Frenchman, and he was very admiring, but it was different somehow from any attention I've ever had from British males. It felt great, I felt special. Mind you, I'm Welsh, so I don't have a lot of sophisticated men to compare him with!

(sorry grumpyhack,I know you hail from Wales, don't know if you're actually Welsh!)

Edited by feral chile, 10 February 2012 - 04:16 PM.

[eFestivals]

feral chile, on 10 February 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Mind you, I'm Welsh, so I don't have a lot of sophisticated men to compare him with!

perhaps it's just because the sheep are better looking?

[tonyblair]

feral chile, on 10 February 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

We need to stop thinking of desire as depraved and dirty. It's only if we disrespect the desired individual (I deliberately avoided using the object of desire there) that it becomes depraved and dirty.

The British are not very good at doing this. i remember when I was young getting chatted up by a Frenchman, and he was very admiring, but it was different somehow from any attention I've ever had from British males. It felt great, I felt special. Mind you, I'm Welsh, so I don't have a lot of sophisticated men to compare him with!

(sorry grumpyhacks,I know you hail from Wales, don't know if you're actually Welsh!)

some people like it more if it's depraved and dirty...

there's definitely a lot we can learn from other cultures. It's interesting how the places I perceive as being a bit more natural, and open, and just generally relaxed bout the sexual aspects of relationships, also seem to have a similar way with food...?

isn't a lot of the way we 'behave' leftovers from Victorian repression?

[feral chile]

eFestivals, on 10 February 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

perhaps it's just because the sheep are better looking?

Cheeky sod!