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The Dirty Independence Question


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33 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

He clearly has an amount of room to be critical in, as the article you linked to was also that.

But he mentions being in a meeting with the Treasury about the fiscal framework too - and he wasn't there as Joe (jock? P) Public.

Maybe, who knows?

 

If he is being paid by the Scottish Government it's nnice to see them giving him a free reign to speak his mind. Oc course the SNP are famed for this. :)

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1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

He clearly has an amount of room to be critical in, as the article you linked to was also that.

But he mentions being in a meeting with the Treasury about the fiscal framework too - and he wasn't there as Joe (jock? P) Public.

Perhaps it was this...

 

Quote

 

26 January 2016
Gwilym Gibbon Centre tries to break deadlock between Scotland and Westminster

The Scottish and UK governments are deadlocked over the formula for reducing Scotland’s block grant once it takes on substantial tax powers under the current Scotland Bill. The Gwilym Gibbon Centre held a small specialist conference in December attended by public servants from London, Cardiff and Edinburgh and experts on funding formulae. Two publications have resulted. Jim Gallagher explains the ‘algebra’ of the constitutional settlement. Iain McLean explains why fiscal plans must be fair to the English as well as the Scots, telling the story of the ‘Geordie revolt’ of 1977 in which he played a part.

 

Jim Cuthbert gave a presentation at this seminar. 

Edited by LJS
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So.....a couple of months out from our election, the SNP have just announced that the decade long council tax freeze is going in the bin and that Local Authority`s will be able to set an increase up to 3%.

On top of this, they are increasing the charge on the top 4 bands only. Extra revenue to be invested back into education. NO increase in the lower bands and relief available for the older not so rich who find themselves in bigger houses that are in the higher bands.

The 3% will allow Cooncils to spend more locally if they chose to increase. The revenue created from the increase in the higher banded properties will be invested in education across Scotland. 

This comes after the rates exemptions on shooting estates were scrapped. Small steps and not before time but steps in the right direction in my opinion.

How many parties would announce this so close to an election I wonder.

Still time for them to announce an increase in income tax for the higher earners without it having to affect the low paid as previously discussed on here. NS is so many steps ahead of Labour up here it`s frightening.....and I don`t mean that as a good thing.

Just saw the SNP ask Dave at pmq`s about the £7billion over the next decade he attempted to take from our pockets. He danced around it but didn`t deny it. 

NO voters take note :)

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3 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

So.....a couple of months out from our election, the SNP have just announced that the decade long council tax freeze is going in the bin and that Local Authority`s will be able to set an increase up to 3%.

while i'm not criticising that as a bad thing, its yet another case of the SNP mirroring what those nasty english tories do - cos they've also recently dropped a freeze.

 

3 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

On top of this, they are increasing the charge on the top 4 bands only. Extra revenue to be invested back into education. NO increase in the lower bands and relief available for the older not so rich who find themselves in bigger houses that are in the higher bands.

and just think about the lost decade where they didn't do this and had the poor carry the burden.

 

3 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

The 3% will allow Cooncils to spend more locally if they chose to increase. The revenue created from the increase in the higher banded properties will be invested in education across Scotland. 

This comes after the rates exemptions on shooting estates were scrapped. Small steps and not before time but steps in the right direction in my opinion.

Yep, a step in the right direction.

When other parties would have probably made that step without a lost decade to benefit the richest.

How many years will it take, I wonder, until the richest aren't still in profit from the lost decade?

 

3 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Still time for them to announce an increase in income tax for the higher earners without it having to affect the low paid as previously discussed on here.

there's still time and they might, tho there's no particular need to do so when it's something they can't do for over a year yet.

I'm guessing that the smartest political move would be to not include it in their manifesto for May and instead drop it on people afterwards when it won't cost them votes (and so possibly some seats), tho there's also reasons why they might choose to be upfront about it.

 

3 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

NS is so many steps ahead of Labour up here it`s frightening.....and I don`t mean that as a good thing.

Really?  How is leaving the poor to have to wait for another year to be helped being ahead of Labour? :blink:

It's only ahead of Labour if 'ahead' is leaving the poorest as a political football to be kicked around to benefit the SNP.

 

3 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Just saw the SNP ask Dave at pmq`s about the £7billion over the next decade he attempted to take from our pockets. He danced around it but didn`t deny it. 

NO voters take note :)

:rolleyes:

There's clearly a difference (of half that amount, but hey, bullshit is what the SNP do) between one of the later offers and Sturgeon's best hopes, but whether or not it's anything of "attempted to take from our pockets" firstly has to fix on what you'd have got under the old system of sending Scotland money and then have to let the next 6 years play out.

Meanwhile, it's feckin' funny to hear cheers of dependence at just one-tenth of the cost of indie. If Dave wanted to rob you by the amount you claim, the SNP wants to rob you by at least ten times the amount.... but let's just forget about that bit, shall we, so we can cheer dependence and lies instead? :)

 

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3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

while i'm not criticising that as a bad thing, its yet another case of the SNP mirroring what those nasty english tories do.....

 

So the Tories have introduced an increase for the top 4 bands while not touching the lower banded properties.

Genuinely didn`t know that.

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3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

there's still time and they might, tho there's no particular need to do so when it's something they can't do for over a year yet.

I'm guessing that the smartest political move would be to not include it in their manifesto for May and instead drop it on people afterwards when it won't cost them votes (and so possibly some seats), tho there's also reasons why they might choose to be upfront about it.

 

:lol: Hopefully you`ve covered all angles here.

I think that they have the balls to introduce an income tax rise on the high earners in the run up to this election. I hope they do. We previously discussed them wanting to do this but the Tories attempting to make them also add any % increase across the lower bands equally.

If you don`t think they are several moves in front of Labour up here then you have less of an idea on Scottish politics that I thought..........and that`s saying something ;):P

They have increased the council tax banding on the richest and will use the cash to help the poorer with their council tax while investing in education. As I said earlier, it`s not before time but a clear signal on the direction they wish to take. The Tory leader up here is also not impressed as " we " will be paying higher tax`s than those in England.  I am in no way surprised at your reaction and await your inevitable " robbing the rich - SNP bad " type rant :)

You are Ruth Davidson, where do I claim my Scottish fiver ?

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9 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

So the Tories have introduced an increase for the top 4 bands while not touching the lower banded properties.

Genuinely didn`t know that.

No, they've relaxed a council tax freeze after a number of years - tho not as many as in Scotland tho.

I wonder whose support in the SG the SNP needed to get that original freeze policy passed? :P

In all seriousness, it is a little difficult for the SNP to not follow the tory's lead on things like this from a funding perspective - because if there's going to be more tax-raising and spending at a local level, it's likely that they'll be reduced (proportionately, at least) spending at English level, which will then impact into Scotland's block grant. I get how it works.

The shame here for the SNP isn't in the new policy, it's in the old one of a freeze, and the lack of anything better to replace it with for a decade despite the promise. It's because they took a contrary view to 2007 Westminster because they couldn;'t see |Labour losing power, and they've been scared to rock the boat of their 2007 promises since.

Better late than never, I guess - but don't kid yourself that you haven't passed up better things to eventually celebrate this rather wet fish.

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12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Better late than never, I guess - but don't kid yourself that you haven't passed up better things to eventually celebrate this rather wet fish.

I`m not " celebrating ". Are the Tories not increasing the bills on the top 4 bands down your way then ?

The commision thingy only reported before Christmas so they have been pretty efficient with introducing this in a couple of months when it affects every household in Scotland.

As I said, it`s a small overdue step but I like the direction of travel and the fact that it`s out there before the election so people can decide if they thinks it`s fair, progressive etc.

If they go with the tax hike on the higher earners next then maybe you will get a few new residents down your way.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I think that they have the balls to introduce an income tax rise on the high earners in the run up to this election. I hope they do.


It's the one policy I'd have said until today they'd be certain to have in their manifesto, but now I'm not so sure as it'll be pretty much the same people who'd be hit by that income tax rise as are getting hit with the higher council tax bandings.

Except the bandings hit many more - about one in four from what the SNP have said. They're certainly likely to be the richer types, but it's not guaranteed, and I read there's to be rebates for lower earners (which is good, but will probably need an over-complicated system given the spread of various powers).

The bandings are a smart move tho - it raises more than double the amount of 5% on the top end rate, and sort-of targets the right people. To get the same money via Income taxes would require extra tax bands, and I suspect that would create a spotlight on SNP doings that the SNP don't want.

The advantage with not doing the higher income tax is that it doesn't scare any rich out of Scotland; then again, the people it hits are right at the top end and few in number and it would give NS more money to chuck around.

But she's tended to be cautious in the past, so I reckon that's the more likely route here

 

4 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

If you don`t think they are several moves in front of Labour up here then you have less of an idea on Scottish politics that I thought..........and that`s saying something ;):P

Labour might be staffed by a bunch of numpties as far as Scotland is concerned, but nothing of that changes the facts of policy announcements made.

I've not checked it out, but the higher CT bandings thing is being claimed as a SLAB policy of a few years ago (for the 2011 election, I think it was) in the newspaper report I read, and income taxing for the benefit of the poorest is a SLAB idea for this year that you and other snippers dislike.

 

4 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

They have increased the council tax banding on the richest and will use the cash to help the poorer with their council tax while investing in education.

From April 2017. Apparently, the poor don't need any help for the next year, but after then they're desperate for it. :P

Either you're in this for the poor or you're in this for....?

 

4 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

As I said earlier, it`s not before time but a clear signal on the direction they wish to take. The Tory leader up here is also not impressed as " we " will be paying higher tax`s than those in England.  I am in no way surprised at your reaction and await your inevitable " robbing the rich - SNP bad " type rant :)

You are Ruth Davidson, where do I claim my Scottish fiver ?

 

It's hardly a clear signal, unless they're signalling 'caution'?

 

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I'm as much with Neil on this one as I am with Comfy. (savour this moment guys: it doesn't happen often)

I agree with you both that the proposals in themselves are OK. There is nothing wrong with getting some of the rich to pay a bit more & letting local councils raise a wee bit more money. And I'm conscious that we haven't seen their full manifesto proposals yet so I am certainly not making a final judgement  at this stage.

 

So what's my problem?  

 

The proposals are timid & unadventurous. They tinker with a tax system that is fundamentally unfair.

 

The SNP have a deserved reputation for being cautious. This can in part be justified in their first term by them being a minority government with all the constraints that involves & explained (although perhaps not justified) in their second term by their desire to avoid controversy -  with a referendum to win.

 

Neither of these excuses apply now – they have such a commanding lead that they could probably cull the top 10% of the rich & still win a landslide victory.

 

I await the remainder of their manifesto proposals – after all the song & dance they made about austerity -  I can't believe they won't increase the top rate of tax but they have the opportunity to do so much more.

 

I do agree with Comfy that Labour, sadly, offer little real challenge. The issue with their 1p on tax proposals was that it appeared to be unworkable, although personally I would have preferred it if the SNP had reacted with less of a knee jerk reaction & used it as a starting point for a discussion on the best way to tackle poverty & inequality.

 

 

Edited by LJS
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27 minutes ago, Stash said:

From reports today I read that the increases in council tax bands could expect to net a further £100m a year. 

It's going to take a while to repay the ever growing council debt mountain if that's the best they can do. 

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/holyrood/848586/scotlands-councils-almost-16-billion-in-debt/ 

 Not sure your article stands up to much scrutiny Stash.

 

" debt per head has remained fairly consistent with previous years at £2,377. "

perhaps a better measure than a "presumable unadjusted headline total.

 

i'm not for a moment suggesting there are not issues with local government financing in Scotland  - I just think that, as usual,  the media is so desperate to attack the SNP that they lose any vague sense of perspective.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, LJS said:

I'm as much with Neil on this one as I am with Comfy. (savour this moment guys: it doesn't happen often)

I agree with you both that the proposals in themselves are OK. There is nothing wrong with getting some of the rich to pay a bit more & letting local councils raise a wee bit more money. And I'm conscious that we haven't seen their full manifesto proposals yet so I am certainly not making a final judgement  at this stage.

 

So what's my problem?  

 

The proposals are timid & unadventurous. They tinker with a tax system that is fundamentally unfair.

 

The SNP have a deserved reputation for being cautious. This can in part be justified in their first term by them being a minority government with all the constraints that involves & explained (although perhaps not justified) in their second term by their desire to avoid controversy -  with a referendum to win.

 

Neither of these excuses apply now – they have such a commanding lead that they could probably cull the top 10% of the rich & still win a landslide victory.

 

I await the remainder of their manifesto proposals – after all the song & dance they made about austerity -  I can't believe they won't increase the top rate of tax but they have the opportunity to do so much more.

 

I do agree with Comfy that Labour, sadly, offer little real challenge. The issue with their 1p on tax proposals was that it appeared to be unworkable, although personally I would have preferred it if the SNP had reacted with less of a knee jerk reaction & used it as a starting point for a discussion on the best way to tackle poverty & inequality.

 

 

This is all fair enough ljs. As I said earlier,  I'm not celebrating.

I think and hope they will introduce a higher tax rate for our top earners.

Baby steps for sure but in the right direction. I think we all, so far, are in agreement apart from stash who preferred to take the discussion away from the council tax changes.

Poorer folk affected by these changes are also being protected which "feels" different to the approach taken by the torys with the tax credit cuts.

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15 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

This is all fair enough ljs. As I said earlier,  I'm not celebrating.

I think and hope they will introduce a higher tax rate for our top earners.

Baby steps for sure but in the right direction. I think we all, so far, are in agreement apart from stash who preferred to take the discussion away from the council tax changes.

Poorer folk affected by these changes are also being protected which "feels" different to the approach taken by the torys with the tax credit cuts.

agree comfy - & its still the most progressive offering from any electable party in the UK - just feel they could do so much more.

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A further concern has to be around how much any extra revenue raised will have to be used to mitigate against ongoing cuts to the block grant so we are trying to move forward but standing still.

A bit like turning an oil tanker..... For want of a better expression :-)

I'm clinging to, an overdue small step in the right direction that signals who they plan to target going forward.

Think we might also see changes in the welfare benefits we can influence that will also be out of step with the tory plans down the road.

If that gets announced along with the tax rise on the richest then that would be a continuation of the council tax stuff from today. 

Those who can afford to pay more helping those who can't. 

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33 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Poorer folk affected by these changes are also being protected which "feels" different to the approach taken by the torys with the tax credit cuts.

Well I wouldn't describe a pensioner sitting in a million quid house as poor even with a low income. If there is an argument that they should be protected from having to sell up, move to a granny flat and release equity to pay their taxes (sentimental reasons maybe?) and we are happy as tax payers to subsidize pensioners to rattle about on their own in 4 bed houses whilst people who would like to start a family can't afford them, unless their tax avoidance is deducted from their estate when they die (which it doesn't seem to be) this is effectively an inheritance middle class give away. Definitely a vote winner though and would be on both sides of the border, as they were the group which most voted for "in" the SNP has learn't from Westminster that buying the votes of the boomers is the way to go.

Edited by lost
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10 minutes ago, lost said:

Well I wouldn't describe a pensioner sitting in a million quid house as poor even with a low income. If there is an argument that they should be protected from having to sell up, move to a granny flat and release equity to pay their taxes (sentimental reasons maybe?) and we are happy as tax payers to subsidize pensioners to rattle about on their own in 4 bed houses whilst people who would like to start a family can't afford them, unless their tax avoidance is deducted from their estate when they die (which it doesn't seem to be) this is effectively an inheritance middle class give away. Definitely a vote winner though and would be on both sides of the border, as they were the group which most voted for "in" the SNP has learn't from Westminster that buying the votes of the boomers is the way to go.

I think the number of pensioners rattling about in million pound houses in Scotland who are also so cash poor that they can't afford the higher council tax are probably not plentiful enough to make it worth anyone's while to kick them out their houses - especially considering the fun the right wing press would have with it.

 

You do of course highlight a bigger issue - not limited to Scotland  - that pensioners - even the very wealthy ones - are untouchable.

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1 hour ago, lost said:

Well I wouldn't describe a pensioner sitting in a million quid house as poor even with a low income. If there is an argument that they should be protected from having to sell up, move to a granny flat and release equity to pay their taxes (sentimental reasons maybe?) and we are happy as tax payers to subsidize pensioners to rattle about on their own in 4 bed houses whilst people who would like to start a family can't afford them, unless their tax avoidance is deducted from their estate when they die (which it doesn't seem to be) this is effectively an inheritance middle class give away. Definitely a vote winner though and would be on both sides of the border, as they were the group which most voted for "in" the SNP has learn't from Westminster that buying the votes of the boomers is the way to go.

I'd suggest that the pensioners you describe above will be unionist supporters and I gather in your scenario they will be protected unless they have large private pensions or savings. 

In many cases they will have lived in the house all their life and if they live alone they may well rely on support from neighbours etc

Perhaps they even enjoy the odd visit from grandchild who stay over etc.

Not saying it's not a fair point you raise.

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12 hours ago, Stash said:

From reports today I read that the increases in council tax bands could expect to net a further £100m a year. 

It's going to take a while to repay the ever growing council debt mountain if that's the best they can do. 

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/holyrood/848586/scotlands-councils-almost-16-billion-in-debt/

the increase in council tax bands is to the benefit of the SG, not the councils.

The councils only get to keep any extra they raise via an increase in council tax by up-to 3%.

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12 hours ago, LJS said:

The proposals are timid & unadventurous. They tinker with a tax system that is fundamentally unfair.

 

11 hours ago, LJS said:

still the most progressive offering from any electable party in the UK

But it's not. It's just not. :rolleyes:

As you recognise, it's as timid as timid can be.

Much more progressive is to tax and redistribute, but you're against that as are most in Scotland - but not all Scottish parties are.

Which only gets to prove the SNP's support is not about progressive. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions about what it is instead, but progressive it isn't.

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12 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

This is all fair enough ljs. As I said earlier,  I'm not celebrating.

I think and hope they will introduce a higher tax rate for our top earners.

Baby steps for sure but in the right direction. I think we all, so far, are in agreement apart from stash who preferred to take the discussion away from the council tax changes.

Poorer folk affected by these changes are also being protected which "feels" different to the approach taken by the torys with the tax credit cuts.

Baby steps that you prefer to big steps with poorer folk protected.

I know you don't like that mentioned, but hey it's the truth.

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59 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

But it's not. It's just not. :rolleyes:

As you recognise, it's as timid as timid can be.

Much more progressive is to tax and redistribute, but you're against that as are most in Scotland - but not all Scottish parties are.

 

I presume you refer to ALan's proposals. I have addressed these, but as usual , you choose to ignore that.

 

'I do agree with Comfy that Labour, sadly, offer little real challenge. The issue with their 1p on tax proposals was that it appeared to be unworkable, although personally I would have preferred it if the SNP had reacted with less of a knee jerk reaction & used it as a starting point for a discussion on the best way to tackle poverty & inequality."

 

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8 minutes ago, LJS said:

I presume you refer to ALan's proposals. I have addressed these, but as usual , you choose to ignore that.

 

'I do agree with Comfy that Labour, sadly, offer little real challenge. The issue with their 1p on tax proposals was that it appeared to be unworkable, although personally I would have preferred it if the SNP had reacted with less of a knee jerk reaction & used it as a starting point for a discussion on the best way to tackle poverty & inequality."

 

Labour, and the LibDem's too.

Where no one earning over £19k would have paid more.

Where someone earning £20k would pay just a tenner extra a year.

(and where Labour would have given extra releif to those anyway).

Where the benefit of the extra money would have gone to the poor.

Just because many in Scotland now hate Labour more than they hate the tories and you'd rather free yourself from having to pay extra doesn't get to make your self-serving pronouncements the truth of things. ;)

Truly progressive is to tax and redistribute. It's not about taxing the hate figures and absolving yourself.

Edited by eFestivals
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31 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Labour, and the LibDem's too.

Where no one earning over £19k would have paid more.

Where someone earning £20k would pay just a tenner extra a year.

(and where Labour would have given extra releif to those anyway).

Where the benefit of the extra money would have gone to the poor.

Just because many in Scotland now hate Labour more than they hate the tories and you'd rather free yourself from having to pay extra doesn't get to make your self-serving pronouncements the truth of things. ;)

Truly progressive is to tax and redistribute. It's not about taxing the hate figures and absolving yourself.

Low earners would pay more & SLAB have failed to explain how their rebate thing would work. 

As I said, I would have preferred a more constructive response but it is still a half baked plan.

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6 minutes ago, LJS said:

Low earners would pay more

No, those earning £19k+ pa would pay more.

While I'm not trying to suggest £19k is a great wage, it's a long way above a low wage, and in Scotland it goes an awful lot further than it does in other parts of the country, too.

Can someone earning £20k a year find an extra tenner in taxes across that year? Yes they can.

And who would benefit from the extra taxes raised?

 

6 minutes ago, LJS said:

& SLAB have failed to explain how their rebate thing would work. 

From what I've read that hugely over-stating things, and most based in "nerr nerr nerr we;re not listening cos you're SLab". :rolleyes:

But I called it a dogs dinner when it was discussed here previously, and I stand by that. Within the *real* consequences of that rise (rather than the false 'low earners would pay more') I'm not entirely sure the rebate part is really worth doing, particularly with the extra powers less than a year later.

 

6 minutes ago, LJS said:

As I said, I would have preferred a more constructive response but it is still a half baked plan.

What's half baked are the claims of the SNP being the most progressive party when they're not.

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