The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

[LJS]

SNP Translation 

 

Least Cynical = Least Analytical

 

LJS Translation

 

Least Cynical = Even you believes my shit!

 

 

[Comfy Bean]

On my phone mate but bbc website if anyone can help?

From memory, was a 5000 sample by a uni.

Was covered on bbc news up here earlier.

Nothing we didn't already know although I had missed the bit about brown and the vow. Think that was the other week.

We all knew darling would be lord darling by now. Remember discussing it on here back in the day.

They interviewed a few of the grey vote for the news item. They said they were worried they would lose their pensions.

I didn't think they would but I understand why the percentages are so high.

[LJS]

You're not that difficult to find John

 

I don't try & hide. 

 

I have nothing to be ashamed of.

 

Do you?

[Comfy Bean]

Think I've been enjoying this thread for approx. 2 years now.

We have just seen the first post that contained only the 'jack.

Standards?

Or is this banter?

[Stash]

 

 

I don't know John, did Florence Reece write a verse in her song about people lying and fibbing and pretending to know best, whilst telling mistruths in the hope of convincing the gullible of the world like comfy?

[Stash]

On my phone mate but bbc website if anyone can help?

 

can wait for your link 

[LJS]

I don't know John, did Florence Reece write a verse in her song about people lying and fibbing and pretending to know best, whilst telling mistruths in the hope of convincing the gullible of the world like comfy?

 

 

No, she wasn't writing about better together. 

[Comfy Bean]

OK mate. Will deal you in tomorrow if no one beats me to it.

You could just Google it....It's the bbc site.

Probs easier than cutting and pasting pictures of flags or looking up big words like gullible ;-) Did you know it's not in the dictionary?

[LJS]

can wait for your link 

 

I think this is what comfy was on about

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34291562

 

or this

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34283948

 

It may suggest a drift towards yes but I think it is one of these things we could all spin  our own way if  we wanted to.

 

So i won't

Edited September 18, 2015 by LJS

[Comfy Bean]

Talking about the same poll but different article. Thanks anyway, will be sure to link it tomorrow.

Had age range breakdowns plus by religion!?!

Not sure how religion was relevant or why they asked that.

[LJS]

[eFestivals]

According to the poll published 4 hours ago on the BBC website ( just seen it on the news ).......

 

 

67.1% ( no rounding by me   ) of people aged 70+ voted NO

 

59.5% of 60-69 year old`s also though we were better together.

 

Heavy campaigning around the threat to Pensions may have been a master stroke by Project Fear.

 

Less " affluent " areas voted YES - see Dundee and Glasgow.

 

Gordon Brown not convinced " his " vow has been delivered by Dave. Unconfirmed reports that Dave has now stopped laughing.

 

Darling is now Lord Darling. Tories romping the polls as they shrink the state and cut welfare. Better together one year on 

The SNP misrepresented the pensions issue. Most snippers still do.

The oldies don't die out as you wish they might. They get replaced by others just as dependent on pensions faster than they die.

Only 4 areas out of 32 voted yes.

There was no Gordon Brown vow that anyone was responsible for delivering. Every jot of the real vow has been delivered.

Any confusion about the vow is down to those who weren't paying attention, but mostly down to yes-ers to who it meant nothing at all lying about it.

I've read hundreds of thousands of comments about the indyref since last year. I have never once seen someone say "I only voted no because of the vow". I don't believe any Scotsman has ever met anyone who voted no because of the vow (mostly because they'd be too fearful of the yes-ers to admit voting no).

The SNP are now the infallible SNP, and yet it's strange that they still don't have the first idea of how they might bring about an indie Scotland. Funny that.

 

Scotland self-determined its future. You don't like it.

 

Edited September 19, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

They interviewed a few of the grey vote for the news item. They said they were worried they would lose their pensions.

I didn't think they would but I understand why the percentages are so high.

 

As you "didn't think they would" perhaps you can outline for us all how come their pensions were so secure in an indy Scotland?

 

After all, you must know what you're talking about to have those thoughts, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tolywoly]

Just wanted to add that people with different political opinions voted YES so not sure how this sits with your " traitors " chat  .

 

Greens, Labour, SNP......... probably not Tory but maybe the odd one. I can`t be sure.

 

Many think that Labour could bounce back up here in an Independent Scotland. I`d think that would be possible, probably minus Dugdale. 

 

The Green`s are doing ok and they were a very visible YES during the campaign.

 

Think I voted Patrick Harvie as my man of the match although some on here got totally obsessed with Big Eck 

 

#teamharvie

 

I'm sure this was already obvious, but the different political opinions I was referring to were those who dared to question the wisdom of the great cause. But that's not my chat. I'm a rationalist, I don't mix up national identity with my political choices.

 

 

 

Congratulations, you have found a nutter on the internet. You must be so proud.

 

I'm please you recognise he's a nutter. If there's one positive thing to come out of last year's indy ref, it's given people the confidence to openly express ill-informed reactionary opinions they would have probably kept a lid on before. Keeps the rest of us amused. 

 

Salmond's gotten worse. He's more of a loudmouth demagogue than he's ever been. Possibly emboldened by the shit he got away with last year. 

 

And I'm disappointed Kaosmark2 still isn't feeling Buzzfeed.

Edited September 19, 2015 by tolywoly

[LJS]

 

 

I'm please you recognise he's a nutter. If there's one positive thing to come out of last year's indy ref, it's given people the confidence to openly express ill-informed reactionary opinions they would have probably kept a lid on before. Keeps the rest of us amused. 

 

 

I don't think indyref can claim responsibility for webnuts. nor do we have anything like a monopoly of them.

 

 

 

 

Salmond's gotten worse. He's more of a loudmouth demagogue than he's ever been. Possibly emboldened by the shit he got away with last year. 

 

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion & there is no doubt oor Eck does like to wind folk up a bit. Looks like he's succeeded with you.

 

I thought he was the second best panellist on Question Time the other night after John McDonnell although I thought his response to JC not imploring God to save Liz was crap.

[tolywoly]

 

Salmond's gotten worse. He's more of a loudmouth demagogue than he's ever been. Possibly emboldened by the shit he got away with last year. 

 

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion & there is no doubt oor Eck does like to wind folk up a bit. Looks like he's succeeded with you.

 

I thought he was the second best panellist on Question Time the other night after John McDonnell although I thought his response to JC not imploring God to save Liz was crap.

He's not winding me up. Though you're right, his style of political discourse doesn't appeal to me.

 

I'm also still amazed he was able to remain First Minster after lying about that legal advice on an independent Scotland's position wrt the EU, and spending public money trying to cover it up. It's set quite a high benchmark for the level of political sleaze that's acceptable in Scotland. If you're SNP. Alistair Carmichael must look on in envy. Think it's too late for him to change party?

 

Haven't seen Question Time, I'd gone off it. Though I might give this week's a shot.

[Comfy Bean]

You're not that difficult to find ****

 

A touch sinister 

[Comfy Bean]

can wait for your link 

 

Here you go mate :

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34283948

[Comfy Bean]

The oldies don't die out as you wish they might. They get replaced by others just as dependent on pensions faster than they die.

There was no Gordon Brown vow that anyone was responsible for delivering. Every jot of the real vow has been delivered.

Any confusion about the vow is down to those who weren't paying attention, but mostly down to yes-ers to who it meant nothing at all lying about it.

Scotland self-determined its future. You don't like it.

 

 

 

Heavy campaigning around the threat to Pensions may have been a master stroke by Project Fear.

 

 

Well maybe if you wait a few years until the current pensioners die off a bit and they are replaced by new pensioners, you might get the result you desire. 

 

 

 

 

Neil it wasn`t me who mentioned oldies " dying out ". I certainly don`t " wish " they would 

Compared to some, I am one !

 

It`s not me who thinks the vow hasn`t been delivered. As I mentioned it was Gordy Brown. Take it up with him. He was the " face " of it although Dave and co came up on the day after ditching PMQ`s if I remember.

 

As we have discussed before, my view is that the " vow " was very cleverly written and you will not be able to quote me saying it hasn`t been delivered. There is a reason for that but it won`t stop you making stuff up....which I accept 

 

Oh and it was Stash who was speaking about people dying off and perhaps getting a different result as a result.

[LJS]

Neil it wasn`t me who mentioned oldies " dying out ". I certainly don`t " wish " they would 

Compared to some, I am one !

 

It`s not me who thinks the vow hasn`t been delivered. As I mentioned it was Gordy Brown. Take it up with him. He was the " face " of it although Dave and co came up on the day after ditching PMQ`s if I remember.

 

As we have discussed before, my view is that the " vow " was very cleverly written and you will not be able to quote me saying it hasn`t been delivered. There is a reason for that but it won`t stop you making stuff up....which I accept 

 

Oh and it was Stash who was speaking about people dying off and perhaps getting a different result as a result.

 

The vow said nothing as Lord Forsyth said at the time it was like a bus timetable with the times of all the buses and no destinations. Funnily enough no one in the media took anyone to task for this at the time. What hasn't been delivered is the promises made, particularly by Gordon Brown. Here's what he said last week 

 

“The Government [is] falling short on the delivery of the recommendations of the Smith Commission on Scottish Devolution and the case for action is enhanced if the government is unwilling to listen to alternative views,”

http://www.thenational.scot/politics/brown-admits-the-tories-havent-fulfilled-the-vow.7402

 

I think there may be something in it, if Gordon thinks it is not being delivered.

 

As for the oldies, well like it or not, we will all die. The questions are will the next generation switch from yes to no as they get older? Conventional wisdom says folk get more right wing as they age. Will this result in the No vote staying firm or will people generally stick to their convictions on indy despite getting older? 

 

The other question is whether the young folk replacing them at the bottom of the age range continue to be relatively favourable to Indy?

 

I have no idea what the answer to these questions is & I guess the truth is: neither does anyone else.

 

p.s of course if you listen to Neil you would assume the yes vote would increase amongst the elderly as dementia sets in.

[Comfy Bean]

As you "didn't think they would" perhaps you can outline for us all how come their pensions were so secure in an indy Scotland?

 

After all, you must know what you're talking about to have those thoughts, right?

 

Just as I think that " we " should take our share of our debts. I think it would be right that the good folks in the 70+ demographic that we were talking about who will have paid in there fair share to the " state " over the years....Lets say for 5 decades...then YES it seems likely to me that they would continue to collect their pension from the " state " or pot if you prefer until their dying day.

 

Something that would have required negotiation of course, just like our share of the debt. Are you saying that you think these people`s pensions would just be scrubbed out by rUK. In fairness I accept you might actually say that. My point was more around the fact that Lord D was willing to sabre rattle against these folk 

 

I did accept it may have worked. 67.1 % suggests it did.

 

On further thought, if.....we had voted for Indy and your view was shared by rUK then the people of Scotland would have happily supported these folks through welfare or whatever was necessary. As you know we are already happy to pick up the tab if they require care etc.

 

For the younger folk looking forward to their pensions.....it`s almost as if you are suggesting that by staying in the Kingdom we would not have to pay in more, for longer, in return for less.

 

 

[Comfy Bean]

 

 

I'm sure this was already obvious, but the different political opinions I was referring to were those who dared to question the wisdom of the great cause. But that's not my chat. I'm a rationalist, I don't mix up national identity with my political choices.

 

 

I'm please you recognise he's a nutter. If there's one positive thing to come out of last year's indy ref, it's given people the confidence to openly express ill-informed reactionary opinions they would have probably kept a lid on before. Keeps the rest of us amused. 

 

Salmond's gotten worse. He's more of a loudmouth demagogue than he's ever been. Possibly emboldened by the shit he got away with last year. 

 

And I'm disappointed Kaosmark2 still isn't feeling Buzzfeed.

 

 

Ah fair enough but this " dared to question " still seems a bit extreme. I`ve never seen or heard anyone using the term " traitor " until you did. I know I haven`t ever used it, why would I.

 

I think the momentum with YES must be Labour voters giving up hope on a future Labour PM. I also think than in an Indy Scotland we will see a Labour PM. I have no issues with that. None at all 

 

As you know there were many positive things to come from last year ( much more than one ). Great turnout and debates up and down the country through our schools, town halls etc. 

 

I agree with you that Buzzfeed can give us all a laugh. Good excuse to post one of my favourites 

 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/its-been-easy-its-been-to-outdo-the-snp#.yybMv4Q2L

Edited September 19, 2015 by comfortablynumb1910

[Stash]

...I`ve never seen or heard anyone using the term " traitor " until you did....

 

It must be terribly comfy under your rock Comfy:

 

Gordon Brown Branded “A Traitor” For Opposing Scottish Independence

Jim Murphy called a traitor on his Irn Bru crates

 

Chris Hoy called a traitor to Scotland

Scotsman HQ graffiti with traitors message

[Comfy Bean]

Cheers stash. Well spotted. Don't think we had bothered with the tit for tat links on here or just posting flags like the jack etc.

Looks like your right though. As I said, I've never claimed anyone was a traitor nor has anyone else on here. Until you.

I won't bother trying to balance the books. Easy as it would be :-)