The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

You're funny.

Someday, you will accurately quote what someone really says.

 

has she said "give us more money"? Yes she has.

 

Does Scotland self-generate the money she's demanding? No it doesn't.

 

Can a Scotsman do maths? Not any Scotsman posting here by the look of things.

Edited September 18, 2015 by eFestivals

[Stash]

 

Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale asked: "When will this First Minister stop campaigning for another referendum and start governing for a better Scotland?"

 

Ruth Davidson, the Scots Tory leader, accused her of looking for an "excuse" to hold a second plebiscite

The First Minister hit back: "If the Tories, if Labour, if the Liberals really believed in their heart of hearts that the people of Scotland were totally against independence, they would be crying out for another referendum on independence." 

 

 

Well there is a rather twisted and stupid piece of logic. The people have already spoken, they said no. Why would any sensible politician, who's job is to oversee the security & prosperity of this country endanger that by pandering to the SNP calls for a neverendum, never mind actually championing it on her behalf. 

 

[eFestivals]

and if Sturgeon believed she could actually win a referendum she'd be having one.

 

The very reason she's not is because she knows she can't win one. She's not even going to unconditionally commit to one in the upcoming manifesto.

 

Instead it's going to be couched in a load of bullshit, to try to keep the shouty radical types on side by suggesting they'll be one but there won't really be.

 

Because she has no answers to currency, deficit, and the EU.

 

Even if the UK leaves the EU she's still got no answers to the EU issue!

 

Having said that, I don't see it as impossible that Scotland still might vote indy despite there being no answers to the questions that matter. What is impossible, tho, is that the indy dream will be lived up to.

[LJS]

and if Sturgeon believed she could actually win a referendum she'd be having one.

The very reason she's not is because she knows she can't win one. She's not even going to unconditionally commit to one in the upcoming manifesto.

Instead it's going to be couched in a load of bullshit, to try to keep the shouty radical types on side by suggesting they'll be one but there won't really be.

Because she has no answers to currency, deficit, and the EU.

Even if the UK leaves the EU she's still got no answers to the EU issue!

Having said that, I don't see it as impossible that Scotland still might vote indy despite there being no answers to the questions that matter. What is impossible, tho, is that the indy dream will be lived up to.

I get it ...it's ridiculour for the SNP to want a referendum so soon after the last one & ridiculous for them not to want one.

Simples.

[eFestivals]

I get it ...it's ridiculour for the SNP to want a referendum so soon after the last one & ridiculous for them not to want one.

Simples.

 

No, it's ridiculous to pretend to want one when you don't.

 

Because you know you'd lose. Again.

 

That 'you', btw, is both you and Sturgeon.

 

And you'd vote yes without there being any answers to the big questions. It's not like you've got a reasoned position.

 

At least Sturgeon has that.

Edited September 18, 2015 by eFestivals

[tolywoly]

and if Sturgeon believed she could actually win a referendum she'd be having one.

 

The very reason she's not is because she knows she can't win one. She's not even going to unconditionally commit to one in the upcoming manifesto.

 

Instead it's going to be couched in a load of bullshit, to try to keep the shouty radical types on side by suggesting they'll be one but there won't really be.

 

Yep, if she thought they could win it she'd be using today to announce the inclusion Indy Ref 2 in the SNPs 2016 manifesto. Instead she;s playing to the gallery.

 

According to Buzzfeed the Yes crowd are reciting the Braveheart Freedom speech outside the Scottish Parliament. Apart from that momentary lapse I'm sure they're all lovely rational people, who definitely don't consider people with different political opinions to be traitors to their country. 

Edited September 18, 2015 by tolywoly

[kaosmark2]

According to Buzzfeed

[eFestivals]

who definitely don't consider people with different political opinions to be traitors to their country. 

 

I've read there's a "one year on" indy march/demonstration tomorrow, in George Square, I think.

 

Where I've read about it says "if you love your country you have to be there".

[tolywoly]

Don't knock Buzzfeed, there's some good stuff on there.

 

I should have stayed off social media today. A couple of times I've started reading something thinking 'this has to be a parody'. Second time it ended with a guy stating he now refuses to buy anything online unless the country dropdown options include Scotland. 

[eFestivals]

Don't knock Buzzfeed, there's some good stuff on there.

 

I should have stayed off social media today. A couple of times I've started reading something thinking 'this has to be a parody'. Second time it ended with a guy stating he now refuses to buy anything online unless the country dropdown options include Scotland. 

 

Nations internalise their economies in that way.

 

It's bad news for an indy Scotland, because there's already a large amount of that going on within Scotland but little of that from England (which tends to work as 'the UK' towards this at the moment).

 

It means that England will stop buying some of the 80(ish)% of Scotland's exports it currently takes, but Scotland will not get much extra internal business to make up for the lost English business.

 

It's one of the many ways that an iScotland will take a hit via the natural consequences of being indy. If it wants to be indy, it'll have to suck these things up.

Edited September 18, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Nations internalise their economies in that way.

It's bad news for an indy Scotland, because there's already a large amount of that going on within Scotland but little of that from England (which tends to work as 'the UK' towards this at the moment).

It means that England will stop buying some of the 80(ish)% of Scotland's exports it currently takes, but Scotland will not get much extra internal business to make up for the lost English business.

It's one of the many ways that an iScotland will take a hit via the natural consequences of being indy. If it wants to be indy, it'll have to suck these things up.

Are you saying this is all because Scotland isn't in a drop-down box?

[kaosmark2]

Don't knock Buzzfeed, there's some good stuff on there.

[eFestivals]

Are you saying this is all because Scotland isn't in a drop-down box?

 

 

No, I'm saying it because it's how it is.

[Comfy Bean]

According to the poll published 4 hours ago on the BBC website ( just seen it on the news ).......

 

 

67.1% ( no rounding by me   ) of people aged 70+ voted NO

 

59.5% of 60-69 year old`s also though we were better together.

 

Heavy campaigning around the threat to Pensions may have been a master stroke by Project Fear.

 

Less " affluent " areas voted YES - see Dundee and Glasgow.

 

Gordon Brown not convinced " his " vow has been delivered by Dave. Unconfirmed reports that Dave has now stopped laughing.

 

Darling is now Lord Darling. Tories romping the polls as they shrink the state and cut welfare. Better together one year on 

[LJS]

No, I'm saying it because it's how it is.

 

Thanks, I have no idea what you were saying then.

[Comfy Bean]

Yep, if she thought they could win it she'd be using today to announce the inclusion Indy Ref 2 in the SNPs 2016 manifesto. Instead she;s playing to the gallery.

 

According to Buzzfeed the Yes crowd are reciting the Braveheart Freedom speech outside the Scottish Parliament. Apart from that momentary lapse I'm sure they're all lovely rational people, who definitely don't consider people with different political opinions to be traitors to their country. 

 

Just wanted to add that people with different political opinions voted YES so not sure how this sits with your " traitors " chat  .

 

Greens, Labour, SNP......... probably not Tory but maybe the odd one. I can`t be sure.

 

Many think that Labour could bounce back up here in an Independent Scotland. I`d think that would be possible, probably minus Dugdale. 

 

The Green`s are doing ok and they were a very visible YES during the campaign.

 

Think I voted Patrick Harvie as my man of the match although some on here got totally obsessed with Big Eck 

 

#teamharvie

[LJS]

No, it's ridiculous to pretend to want one when you don't.

 

Because you know you'd lose. Again.

 

That 'you', btw, is both you and Sturgeon.

 

And you'd vote yes without there being any answers to the big questions. It's not like you've got a reasoned position.

 

At least Sturgeon has that.

 

 

Yep, if she thought they could win it she'd be using today to announce the inclusion Indy Ref 2 in the SNPs 2016 manifesto. Instead she;s playing to the gallery.

 

According to Buzzfeed the Yes crowd are reciting the Braveheart Freedom speech outside the Scottish Parliament. Apart from that momentary lapse I'm sure they're all lovely rational people, who definitely don't consider people with different political opinions to be traitors to their country. 

 

So , I am constantly lectured when I argue against welfare cuts or trident that I need to listen to the voice of the electorate.

 

Nicola has listened to the voice of the electorate (& ignored many strident calls from her supporters) & made it clear that we ain't getting an indyref commitment in the next SNP manifesto.

 

I'll allow you all to welcome that because you are fair minded people.

 

She has also made it clear that she will outline some circumstances in which she thinks we should have a second indyref - I think its safe to say these circumstances would coincide with a majority support for Indy. So I know with your respect for the views of the people you will be more than happy to allow us a second referendum.

 

I've read there's a "one year on" indy march/demonstration tomorrow, in George Square, I think.

 

Where I've read about it says "if you love your country you have to be there".

 

OMG, I clearly don't love my country then! (whatever that means)

 

 

Don't knock Buzzfeed, there's some good stuff on there.

 

I should have stayed off social media today. A couple of times I've started reading something thinking 'this has to be a parody'. Second time it ended with a guy stating he now refuses to buy anything online unless the country dropdown options include Scotland. 

 

Congratulations, you have found a nutter on the internet. You must be so proud.

Edited September 18, 2015 by LJS

[LJS]

Just wanted to add that people with different political opinions voted YES so not sure how this sits with your " traitors " chat  .

 

Greens, Labour, SNP......... probably not Tory but maybe the odd one. I can`t be sure.

 

Many think that Labour could bounce back up here in an Independent Scotland. I`d think that would be possible, probably minus Dugdale. 

 

The Green`s are doing ok and they were a very visible YES during the campaign.

 

Think I voted Patrick Harvie as my man of the match although some on here got totally obsessed with Big Eck 

 

#teamharvie

 

Comfy, hard to believe its a year gone by.

 

Glad to see you have kept the faith.

 

Really enjoyed your chat over the past year and more.

 

you are the least cynical person on here & an honest man ( great result for you last week)

 

respect.

[LJS]

 Highlights of a year ago tonight...

 

My end of poll announcement on facebook kind of sums things up for me

 

The polls have closed. This campaign has been for me an exhilarating time. But the campaign is over. I have removed my twibbon. unpinned my yes badge. unpeeled the yes sticker from my window. And in the morning I will remove the thing that says "I voted yes" not because I believe with any less passion than I did 5 minutes ago that Scotland should be independent, but because I am now back to being someone who lives in Scotland. However the result goes, I believe we should work together for a better Scotland. Many honest folk in the no campaign have made it clear that they too want change. Let's forget the yes & no & let's unite and try & make our astonishing wee country a better place.

 

 

The chatter about massive turnouts is unreal Some places said to be estimated about mid 90s! Wow! Can that be true?

 

 

CNN put up a graphic of 58% Yes 52% No!!



Scots giving it 110%

 

 

If the Scots don't vote for independence now, I don't think they ever will. Not in our lives, anyway. 

 

 

I'm split russy ...I'm hearing from friends lots of real world examples of people moving to yes. But the guys on the telly dem to be assuming no. God knows. The opinion polls have been bizarre. They were all over the place for ages then suddenly in the last week they all fell into am uncanny line. I have no real theory as to why this happened.
I am still hopeful...ish.

 

 

Definitely, whatever the result the engagement level is something to be proud of

 

 

Yeah, it seems utterly bizarre that there was that poll putting yes ahead, then the next day it was a done deal for no and the bookies paid out.

Very strange and I can't help thinking there has been some manipulation of some sort, even if it was just psychologically.

Not over yet though, but the bookies odds are ridiculously short now

 

 

I think turnout may not be high enough in poorest areas for yes to win

[Stash]

According to the poll published 4 hours ago on the BBC website ( just seen it on the news ).......

 

 

Can you link said poll?

[Stash]

Thanks, I have no idea what you were saying then.

 

Not the first time

[Stash]

Heavy campaigning around the threat to Pensions may have been a master stroke by Project Fear.

 

 

 

Heavy campaigning around the threat to Pensions may have been a master stroke by Project Fear.

 

 

Well maybe if you wait a few years until the current pensioners die off a bit and they are replaced by new pensioners, you might get the result you desire. 

 

Oh, no that's right. The lack of joined up financial planning by the SNP means that this problem will continue for snipies 

Edited September 18, 2015 by Stash

[Stash]

Comfy...........

......you are the least cynical person on here 

 

 

SNP Translation 

 

Least Cynical = Least Analytical

 

LJS Translation

 

Least Cynical = Even you believes my shit!

[Stash]

 Highlights of a year ago tonight...

 

[Stash]

 

Congratulations, you have found a nutter on the internet. You must be so proud.

 

You're not that difficult to find John