The Dirty Independence Question

[kaosmark2]

You don`t need to take anyone on here`s word for it mate , although LJS`s is spot on as normal - the red rosette on a monkey line has been used for decades up here, why not listen to the Leader of Scottish Labour during the Indy campaign. She walked and took her deputy with her describing the Scottish Labour party as being a " branch office " of the Westminster Party. Brown and Darling were not far behind her. We found out yesterday that Darling phoned Dave 2 hours before his 7am speech " begging " him not to include the English votes thing in his victory speech. Dave ignored him ( after getting Darling to lead the BT campaign ) and as we all agreed at the time ( i think ) Dave ignored him and played them like a fiddle. As far as I know SNP MP`s will not vote on matters that only affect England so no matter what Neil believes, if the good folks in England choose to vote for the Tories in the General Election then they will have Tories making the decisions which kind of seems fair enough ! I don`t think that we will see anything like 40+ SNP MP`s anyway but if they aren`t going to vote on English matters anyway then this all seems a bit of a red herring ( involving the SNP ). For me this more about Dave taking Labour down and using our unsuccessful Indy campaign as his excuse. He`s trolled them big time

Labour didn't stand by the tories. Labour stood by the UK.

[Comfy Bean]

Labour didn't stand by the tories. Labour stood by the UK.

Fair comment. The point is they could have went about it differently. This shoulder to shoulder hugging Tories was never going to play out well for Labour up here. I can`t remember exactly what happened now but did Milliband not have to make a sharp exit when he appeared up here 48 hours before the vote ? Thats unheard of for a Labour Leader up here.

Anywayz, I thought then and still believe that Scotland would be perfectly capable of being an Independent Country and while the WM parties keep chasing UKIP to the right NS has been going about the business of making Scotland a fairer country this week. For anyone struggling to understand why more SNP MP`s might get elected than ever before from Scotland here`s a couple of todays news stories that might help. One showing the direction Labour are taking " us " and the other highlighting the current SNP position. Looks like NS has already secured a nod from Dave that we will have 16&17 year olds voting in our election in 2016.

Nicola Sturgeon - taking care of business

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/labour-will-keep-austerity-says-miliband-1-3300839

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/leanne-wood-joins-forces-snps-8292448

[eFestivals]

Fair comment. The point is they could have went about it differently. This shoulder to shoulder hugging Tories was never going to play out well for Labour up here.

You do realise that all the same things could be said for why the the indy campaign lost, don't you?

For example, how would a tory-thinking SNP voter feel about the indy campaign when the SNP were cosying up with the radical (proper) socialists?

If Labour become the tories by doing that, then everything yes becomes Stalinist - and isn't it funny how left leaning Scotland didn't vote for the left solution?

That angle only takes us into the world of stupidity, where nothing means very much at all.

[kaosmark2]

The best thing Nicola Sturgeon has done is start to reverse right-to-buy on council houses in Scotland.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/16/right-to-buy-policy-housing-crisis-labour-council-owned-property?CMP=share_btn_tw

Edited December 17, 2014 by kaosmark2

[eFestivals]

Anywayz, I thought then and still believe that Scotland would be perfectly capable of being an Independent Country

Few people said it wasn't.

It's perfectly capable of being an independent country - but a poorer one than it currently is.

That was said during the indy campiagn, and you chose to not believe it.

That indy campaign had oil as 16% of the budget.

You'd now be welcoming in the age Scottish austerity, to cover the lost oil revenue, plus to create a reserve for your new currency - and those SNP cuts would make tory cuts look like a fun day out.

Oh, I forgot, the SNP wouldn't be running Scotland, would they? Oh, except they would on indy day, when the cuts came in.

And there would be no alternative.

NS has been going about the business of making Scotland a fairer country this week.

she's also been going on about how the SNP's financial plans for indy were laughably bad.

Did you miss that bit?

For anyone struggling to understand why more SNP MP`s might get elected than ever before from Scotland here`s a couple of todays news stories that might help. One showing the direction Labour are taking " us " and the other highlighting the current SNP position. Looks like NS has already secured a nod from Dave that we will have 16&17 year olds voting in our election in 2016.

Nicola Sturgeon - taking care of business

cos 16-17's year olds voting hails in a new fairer country?

It's an idea, yet to be shown as neither good or bad.

Next up, will you be tell us about the balanced Scottish budget and pretending that proves better competence than Westminster, when it merely shows the same competence as any local council?

And then you're condemning Labour for trying to balance a MUCH harder budget to balance, without having the first idea of how you might spend money you don't have to avoid that austerity.

Have you looked at what's happened to oil-dependent Russia in the last week?

[Comfy Bean]

The best thing Nicola Sturgeon has done is start to reverse right-to-buy on council houses in Scotland.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/16/right-to-buy-policy-housing-crisis-labour-council-owned-property?CMP=share_btn_tw

Yip, plus scrapping business rates exemptions for shooting and deer stalking estates. Her position on Trident and insisting NOT renewing it will form part of any future deal with Labour is also to her credit. I`m not pretending she can do much about it but she is pushing the upcoming renewal into the attention of us all ( I don`t mean on here - the UK public ).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30193791

[kaosmark2]

"Capable" and "best served by" are very different issues.

[Comfy Bean]

Neil, you will need to make your mind up about the oil mate. Before the vote there was none left or what we had would be too expensive to extract. Now it`s all about the oil. Surely you cant have it both ways. As I`ve said before, a lot can happen to oil prices over the next couple of years ( Russia ). I`ve also accepted, more than once, that the SNP need to look at how the voters viewed their numbers. As you know, my view was that we work with what we have and treat the oil as a bonus. Our economy is not as dependent on oil as some other countries I won`t mention as I know mentioning them ( or King Eck ) gets you all in a tizzy

Norway

[kaosmark2]

Neil, you will need to make your mind up about the oil mate. Before the vote there was none left or what we had would be too expensive to extract. Now it`s all about the oil. Surely you cant have it both ways. As I`ve said before, a lot can happen to oil prices over the next couple of years ( Russia ). I`ve also accepted, more than once, that the SNP need to look at how the voters viewed their numbers. As you know, my view was that we work with what we have and treat the oil as a bonus. Our economy is not as dependent on oil as some other countries I won`t mention as I know mentioning them ( or King Eck ) gets you all in a tizzy

The SNP claimed that Scotland would be richer because of its oil reserves. That was bollocks before and it'd be bollocks now. It's a key part of the Scottish economy (independent or not), so any policies would be affected by oil prices.

It's been covered before, but Norway's situation is very different,

[Comfy Bean]

"Capable" and "best served by" are very different issues.

Again I agree with you.

I fail to see how the people of Scotland ( or England to be fair ) are " best served " by what we have coming out of Westminster these days and the " direction of travel " of the Westminster parties. I accept that other views on this are available.

Where do you stand on what NS is saying on austerity and Trident if you don`t mind me asking ?

The SNP`s position on these issues hasn`t changed since the Indy vote.

I also like the idea of giving 16 & 17 year olds the vote.

[eFestivals]

Her position on Trident and insisting NOT renewing it will form part of any future deal with Labour is also to her credit.

is it? All it does is guarantees no deal with Labour, and leaves the SNP with little influence.

There's not a chance in hell they'll be prepared to look like they've allowed UK defence policy to be set by less than 4% of the UK population and from just one corner of the landmass.

There would be no better Labour suicide note.

I`m not pretending she can do much about it but she is pushing the upcoming renewal into the attention of us all

Someone here (Scottish, tho in a different thread I think) the other day called the LibDems 'tories' and said there was no difference between the LibDems and the tories, and challenged me to point out the differences they'd made.

This is one of the differences.

The LibDems stopped the current govt committing to Trident, to instead put the decision off until 2016.

I've little idea what position Labour will take, tho don't really expect it to be different to their 70 year almost-constant support of the UK not disarming unilaterally.

But who knows, they might decide that £100bn could be better spent. The USA is egging on the UK to forget its nukes to have better conventional forces instead, so it's not the politically poisonous issue it once was. There might even be a fair few British generals come out in support of no nukes for better conventional forces. Anything is possible with the current planned cuts.

So, imagine that Labour planned to dump Trident.

They still would not do a deal with the SNP, because it would look like they'd been forced into dumping Trident by less than 4% of the population in just one corner of the country.

[Comfy Bean]

The SNP claimed that Scotland would be richer because of its oil reserves. That was bollocks before and it'd be bollocks now. It's a key part of the Scottish economy (independent or not), so any policies would be affected by oil prices.

It's been covered before, but Norway's situation is very different,

I know. My point was that Norway`s economy " is more dependent on oil ".

I`m not sure that the SNP ever said " Scotland would be richer because of it`s oil reserves " but maybe they did. I know I certainly didn`t say those words. I may have said that having oil reserves and foodbanks is a fucked up situation.

Edited December 17, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[kaosmark2]

Again I agree with you.

I fail to see how the people of Scotland ( or England to be fair ) are " best served " by what we have coming out of Westminster these days and the " direction of travel " of the Westminster parties. I accept that other views on this are available.

Where do you stand on what NS is saying on austerity and Trident if you don`t mind me asking ?

The SNP`s position on these issues hasn`t changed since the Indy vote.

I also like the idea of giving 16 & 17 year olds the vote.

I don't think any part of the UK is particularly well served by the Tories, or even Labour, but I think Scotland would be worse off under independence and the SNP.

I largely agree with Labour on austerity. The plan to reduce the deficit by focusing on developing growth and not increasing spending rather than constantly cutting makes more sense IMO. SNP are following a similar dialogue - just with Salmind pre-vote claiming bollocks about how it impacted Scotland worse.

I don't agree with nukes, although I accept the case for them. But even if we have nukes, why trident particularly? Supposedly we could get other 2nd strike nuclear subs for half the price.

16+17 year olds deserve the vote IMO. If you can work and pay NI and income tax, you should be able to vote.

[kaosmark2]

Someone here (Scottish, tho in a different thread I think) the other day called the LibDems 'tories' and said there was no difference between the LibDems and the tories, and challenged me to point out the differences they'd made.

It was viberunner, who I generally find is best ignored because he just goes off on crazy rants saying everyone who votes Labour is a mass-murderer by proxy.

[kaosmark2]

I know. My point was that Norway`s economy " is more dependent on oil ".

I`m not sure that the SNP ever said " Scotland would be richer because of it`s oil reserves " but maybe they did. I know I certainly didn`t say those words. I may have said that having oil reserves and foodbanks is a fucked up situation.

Salmond did, back around 2011-12 when he was promising endless jam.

[eFestivals]

Neil, you will need to make your mind up about the oil mate. Before the vote there was none left or what we had would be too expensive to extract.

i've never said there was none left.

I said Alex made up the numbers for what was left (he over-stated them by 60-100%). The oil industry agree that Alex made them up.

What you do have is expensive to extract. So expensive that in 2014-15 they'll be zero oil revenues for Scotland (the revenues come from a tax on extraction profits, not from extraction itself).

It's costing the Scottish oil industry more money to extract the oil than they sell it for. There's a mass of cost cutting going on, and huge job losses happening, right now.

But hey, just carry on making up bollocks to suit the indy campiagn, even those the indy campaign is long over.

As I`ve said before, a lot can happen to oil prices over the next couple of years ( Russia ).

yet when the price was high, the yes-ers invariably said it wouldn't go down by anything significant.

Yes, it will go up again, but will also go down again.

iScotland would be fucked by that movement. In fact by movements in BOTH directions!

Low prices affect Scottish budgets HUGELY - the loss of 16% of your budget.

High prices still don't put iScotland into a surplus, but they would hugely affect the value of a Scottish currency and fuck the economy in other places.

I`ve also accepted, more than once, that the SNP need to look at how the voters viewed their numbers.

what good would it do them when the people listening would be like you, who prefer to invent numbers than reference the facts?

As you know, my view was that we work with what we have and treat the oil as a bonus.

Oil is a sometimes-curse for an economy like Scotland's, just as it is for Russia.

Our economy is not as dependent on oil as some other countries I won`t mention as I know mentioning them ( or King Eck ) gets you all in a tizzy

Norway

Oh, the wonders of Norway, where oil/gas is now fucking their economy too - but just ignore that part, eh?

Just as all of the many references to Norway have also ignored the fact that they have much much MUCH more than Scotland.

Edited December 17, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Where do you stand on what NS is saying on austerity and Trident if you don`t mind me asking ?

The SNP`s position on these issues hasn`t changed since the Indy vote.

Do they have a position on where the anti-austerity money is coming from yet?

Until they do, it's empty guff.

[eFestivals]

I know. My point was that Norway`s economy " is more dependent on oil ".

That's not actually true.

It's a bigger part of the GDP (10% Norway, 8% Scotland), but their govt spending is not dependent on it to the same extent.

Remember that oil fund they have? That's what takes much of their oil money, not day-to-day spending as is the case with Scotland.

But don't let that stop you inventing false facts, eh?

I`m not sure that the SNP ever said " Scotland would be richer because of it`s oil reserves " but maybe they did. I know I certainly didn`t say those words. I may have said that having oil reserves and foodbanks is a fucked up situation.

what's fucked up is that you're not applying thoughts about everything to those two things. They are not the only things that Scotland has.

If your oil reserves were bigger, then perhaps you could have fewer foodbanks.

If your economy was better, then perhaps you could have fewer foodbanks.

What you can't have is more public spending without the money to fund it.

Rather than making up empty bollocks, perhaps make a real economy instead? It's only that which will get Scotland out of the financial shite.

(Same applies with rUK too - don't go thinking that I'm saying the Scottish situation is unique in being a fucked economy).

[LJS]

Labour didn't stand by the tories. Labour stood by the UK.

They stood shoulder to shoulder with the Tories, in defence of the UK.

If you can't understand why that might be damaging to them, you are more stupid than you think I am!

[kaosmark2]

They stood shoulder to shoulder with the Tories, in defence of the UK.

If you can't understand why that might be damaging to them, you are more stupid than you think I am!

No, I get that, but what you're saying is that they've been damaged by a PR trick of the tories and SNP. Not by any actual policy or speech or declaration they've made.

[eFestivals]

They stood shoulder to shoulder with the Tories, in defence of the UK.

If you can't understand why that might be damaging to them, you are more stupid than you think I am!

Labour stood shoulder to shoulder with the tories over an issue. The SNP have stood shoulder to shoulder with the tories over many issues in Holyrood.

The only reason "it's not the same" is because you're deciding it isn't.

Based in the idea that all the righteous voted yes.

Edited December 17, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

PS: and all the yes groupings shared a single platform. Double standsrds, much?

This is why I say those thinking in this way have lost the plot.

And it's also clear that those people are desperate for Labour to try to coax them back but will take great pleasure in telling them to GTF no matter what the offer.

And so that bitterness will probably be amplified because Labour are hopefully sensible enough to not waste their time on lost causes.

Edited December 17, 2014 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

PS: and all the yes groupings shared a single platform. Double standsrds, much?

This is why I say those thinking in this way have lost the plot.

And it's also clear that those people are desperate for Labour to try to coax them back but will take great pleasure in telling them to GTF no matter what the offer.

And so that bitterness will probably be amplified because Labour are hopefully sensible enough to not waste their time on lost causes.

I think many on the YES side are desperate for Labour to do something and viewing Scottish voters as " lost causes" is not what we have in mind. It`s clear you just don`t quite get that. It`s interesting you use the word bitterness.

I see an opportunity missed and as I pointed out earlier NS has dusted herself down and is getting on with the business of making Scotland a fairer place. A different view on austerity, a different view on Trident, scrapping tax relief for deer stalkers and shooting estates and giving a vote to our 16 & 17 year olds. I`m sure she`ll do more next month as well

Your right though, there is bitterness in the air

[kaosmark2]

I think many on the YES side are desperate for Labour to do something

I wouldn't say that's unique to Yes voting Scots

[Comfy Bean]

PS: and all the yes groupings shared a single platform. Double standsrds, much?

Your right sir, platforms were shared.

YES shared a platform with the Green party. As you know, Patrick Harvie was my man of the match. They also had the left wing of Labour and Tommy and his " comrades " plus Greenpeace.

Off the top of my head Darling was on board with the Tories, Clegg ( yeah I know ), the BNP, UKIP, the Orange Order, Blair, Obama, Almost all media outlets led by the BBC and SKY, our wonderful and genuine Banking community and all the big Supermarkets ( not LIDL or ALDI ). Lord somebody or other from BUPA also gave his views as did Sir somebody from an oil company who`s oil sits just off our shores oh and Gorgeous.