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The Dirty Independence Question


Kyelo
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"or, as Alex Salmond himself has said, perhaps for a lifetime". :lol:

That part made me laugh out loud. Salmond is not half as smart as he's credited as being, cos those words of his have ensured that he'll die a failure with regard to his lifetimes work.

Other opinions on Salmond`s role in the " festival of democracy " that came to an end yesterday are available. 85% turnout and Scotland`s biggest city and Labour stronghold voted to leave the Union.Who would have believed that was possible ?

Before I was out my scratcher his morning we had the PM on the steps of Downing St announcing change. In post after post on here you were telling us that it was all about Alex, Dave seemed to agree :) he said " I want to pay tribute to YES Scotland for a well fought campaign and to say to all those who did vote for Independence WE HEAR YOU. We NOW have a chance - great opportunity- to CHANGE the way British people are governed and CHANGE it for the better. Dave also reckons that Salmond`s campaign " electrified politics in Scotland and caught the imagination of people across the united kingdom ". Meanwhile over in Wales Carwyn Jones was saying " The establishment nearly lost the union, the people of these nations must rebuild it. Wales will not play 2nd fiddle. The case has been made for 16/17 year olds to have the vote, the mould has been broken, the old union is dead. Before lunchtime today over in Ireland Alasdair McDonnell said that Salmond`s SNP " had shown how independence campaigns should be fought. The people of Scotland have engaged in a rational sensible debate on their future. This was a campaign of ideas, policies and debates not violence, death and intimidation. The futility of our own recent history has been drawn into stark contrast ". All of this was today before lunchtime and before you say PMSL :lol: remember these are not my words or opinions.
We all know and accept your view on Salmond but we now also know that history will show that he will not die a failure. This " could "just be the beginning of his lifetimes work.
I personally am grateful to Alex Salmond for making me believe that change WAS possible and taking me on a very emotional journey.In the end, " we " were a 5% swing from victory. I am proud that despite the media, banks, supermarkets and every other part of the establishment throwing the sink at Scotland it was on a knife edge till the booths closed last night. Nobody gave Salmond a serious chance at the beginning( including me ) and look at what has already happened here today, one day after it all ended. I am really, really disappointed but it doesn`t feel like the end for Scottish Independence.
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Other opinions on Salmond`s role in the " festival of democracy " that came to an end yesterday are available.

:lol: - never from the yes side, never from the yes side. Not one did I see a yes-er say they were voting yes "but this is where he's going wrong". There was a refusal to criticise anything about him - and in the end that ensured it was all about Salmond despite what came from yes.

I honestly believe - tho only long into the campaign (not at the start) - that he could have done better than he did (perhaps even won) if he'd honestly faced up the obstacles that an iScotland faced, rather than to try and bluff it out.

For example, beforehand his own private polling would have told him that "no pound" was a non-starter, so that's why he went for the CU option. And yet as the campaign progressed that became the millstone around his own neck ( :P) and the population seemed to be saying they'd accept a new Scottish currency instead.

If he'd have started out with that new currency as his plan, it would have been very hard to win people over, but at least he'd have been trying to with integrity and not the bullshit that many saw thru.

I have mixed feeling over his resignation. Someone who bullshits that much doesn't deserve a public position, and yet we all know that Scottish politics will be the poorer for his loss. And he slopes off with his lifetime's work having ultimately been a failure.

What got him in the end? Dave's use of "or as Mr Salmond said, perhaps a lifetime". This ensured he would never be in the position to call for another vote.

So in comes Jimmy Krankie, and the new campaign starts on Monday. ;)

Edited by eFestivals
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Other opinions on Salmond`s role in the " festival of democracy " that came to an end yesterday are available. 85% turnout and Scotland`s biggest city and Labour stronghold voted to leave the Union.Who would have believed that was possible ?

Before I was out my scratcher his morning we had the PM on the steps of Downing St announcing change. In post after post on here you were telling us that it was all about Alex, Dave seemed to agree :) he said " I want to pay tribute to YES Scotland for a well fought campaign and to say to all those who did vote for Independence WE HEAR YOU. We NOW have a chance - great opportunity- to CHANGE the way British people are governed and CHANGE it for the better. Dave also reckons that Salmond`s campaign " electrified politics in Scotland and caught the imagination of people across the united kingdom ". Meanwhile over in Wales Carwyn Jones was saying " The establishment nearly lost the union, the people of these nations must rebuild it. Wales will not play 2nd fiddle. The case has been made for 16/17 year olds to have the vote, the mould has been broken, the old union is dead. Before lunchtime today over in Ireland Alasdair McDonnell said that Salmond`s SNP " had shown how independence campaigns should be fought. The people of Scotland have engaged in a rational sensible debate on their future. This was a campaign of ideas, policies and debates not violence, death and intimidation. The futility of our own recent history has been drawn into stark contrast ". All of this was today before lunchtime and before you say PMSL :lol: remember these are not my words or opinions.
We all know and accept your view on Salmond but we now also know that history will show that he will not die a failure. This " could "just be the beginning of his lifetimes work.
I personally am grateful to Alex Salmond for making me believe that change WAS possible and taking me on a very emotional journey.In the end, " we " were a 5% swing from victory. I am proud that despite the media, banks, supermarkets and every other part of the establishment throwing the sink at Scotland it was on a knife edge till the booths closed last night. Nobody gave Salmond a serious chance at the beginning( including me ) and look at what has already happened here today, one day after it all ended. I am really, really disappointed but it doesn`t feel like the end for Scottish Independence.

I just think you'd have had a better chance without him. As time went by he became more and more of a liability.

He blew it. Completely and utterly. Everything was in his favour - the wording of the question, the long period of time to build momentum, 16 year olds getting the vote, a hated tory government in power led by a buffoon in the middle of a massive austerity drive......

And he blew it.

There's loads and loads and loads to be proud about from the Yes side, but A Salmond is not one of them. The Yes campaign achieved what they did in spite of him, not because of him. His leadership and utter lack of any kind of a sensible vision for the future fucked you all.

Edited by russycarps
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Nobody gave Salmond a serious chance at the beginning( including me )

me neither, tho with hindsight that was very foolish. Someone who could get 44% of the votes for the SG was always likely to be able to get at least something similar in the indyref.

And in the end, that's pretty much all he did get. I don't think there's been any major step forwards, and the economic factors and demographic factors seem to be strongly against indy - tho of course the alignment of a number of special circumstances again sometime in the future could change that just as it did to some extent this time. Recession/austerity combined with tories is a pretty lethal combination anywhere, and chuck in the last gasps of oil and it's pretty much now or never.

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Other opinions on Salmond`s role in the " festival of democracy " that came to an end yesterday are available. 85% turnout and Scotland`s biggest city and Labour stronghold voted to leave the Union.Who would have believed that was possible ?

Before I was out my scratcher his morning we had the PM on the steps of Downing St announcing change. In post after post on here you were telling us that it was all about Alex, Dave seemed to agree :) he said " I want to pay tribute to YES Scotland for a well fought campaign and to say to all those who did vote for Independence WE HEAR YOU. We NOW have a chance - great opportunity- to CHANGE the way British people are governed and CHANGE it for the better. Dave also reckons that Salmond`s campaign " electrified politics in Scotland and caught the imagination of people across the united kingdom ". Meanwhile over in Wales Carwyn Jones was saying " The establishment nearly lost the union, the people of these nations must rebuild it. Wales will not play 2nd fiddle. The case has been made for 16/17 year olds to have the vote, the mould has been broken, the old union is dead. Before lunchtime today over in Ireland Alasdair McDonnell said that Salmond`s SNP " had shown how independence campaigns should be fought. The people of Scotland have engaged in a rational sensible debate on their future. This was a campaign of ideas, policies and debates not violence, death and intimidation. The futility of our own recent history has been drawn into stark contrast ". All of this was today before lunchtime and before you say PMSL :lol: remember these are not my words or opinions.
We all know and accept your view on Salmond but we now also know that history will show that he will not die a failure. This " could "just be the beginning of his lifetimes work.
I personally am grateful to Alex Salmond for making me believe that change WAS possible and taking me on a very emotional journey.In the end, " we " were a 5% swing from victory. I am proud that despite the media, banks, supermarkets and every other part of the establishment throwing the sink at Scotland it was on a knife edge till the booths closed last night. Nobody gave Salmond a serious chance at the beginning( including me ) and look at what has already happened here today, one day after it all ended. I am really, really disappointed but it doesn`t feel like the end for Scottish Independence.

I really hope this is used to give momentum towards political change in the UK. As you say, the establishment was against a yes vote, and even though I think Yes would have been the wrong outcome for all of the UK, I'm glad it got notice and did a number of things right. AV was crushed by the establishment machine and the powers that be, but while this was defeated, I think you're right to say it gives hope for change in the future.

However, as Neil has said, everything was in the advantage for Yes, particularly the wording of the question (a benefit AV didn't get). I think referenda to change the status quo will continue though, and hopefully one (and hopefully it'll be the right one) will be successful.

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I have and don't remember a dramatic swing at any point back to no... We saw a stalling of the yes progress but it's hard to prove that was down to likes of Cameron coming to Scotland promising stuff.

It's all being over stated

I think the idea of trying to bribe Scotland into staying was naive and pointless. It felt to me at the time like a panic move that gave Yes more momentum and I don't think it will have increased anyone's confidence in Cameron or what he campaigns for.

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I think the idea of trying to bribe Scotland into staying was naive and pointless. It felt to me at the time like a panic move that gave Yes more momentum and I don't think it will have increased anyone's confidence in Cameron or what he campaigns for.

Yep, I agree.

And there was an interesting article on the Torygraph in the last few days about loads of MPs being a bit angry at the offers, because with hindsight they look to have been unnecessary.

Still, it's good that even the rabid-right like John Redwood have accepted that the offer has to be fulfilled - and I actually find myself agreeing with him that it should only be done as part of a wider new constitutional settlement across the whole union. ... tho the devil will be in the details.

PS: I read today about Salmond's 37 meetings with Murdoch. 37!!!!! There's no one in Westminster so far up Murdoch's arse!

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PR won't happen...

It won't, unless people get on it now, today.

Has the energy of the yes campaign evaporated, or does it still exist? Scotland needs to ensure PR at Westminster just as much as anyone else, and they're the ones with impetuous to bring it about. And yet, I suspect, they're going introspective.

He's betting that politics in Scotland let alone England haven't changed forever, and they haven't even changed for a couple of days. Here's betting that while the changes will come, nothing of them will be driven by the public.

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The stupid mans push for AV (no one wanted it) has made it very hard to ask the public again to question FPTP via referendum and go for PR...

If it had never happened it would be easier to now push for it.

It wasn't Clegg that pushed for an AV vote. He pushed for a PR vote, but was offered AV or nothing by Dave. So he grabbed some power rather than none at all. ;)

I definitely agree that the fact of the AV vote appeared to have set-back all chances of PR - but we're in a different game now. There's even, just perhaps, the chance that Clegg can create his own political salvation by another push at PR right now.

It needs a big weight to push for it tho, else it's not going to happen. If there's the push it'll be almost impossible for the govt to refuse - because every other part of the union has PR for their devolved units.

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The problem is the YES camp are pushing for powers quick....

They would be best served following Millibands advice of going more slowly and going for full change. I get the feeling he is thinking about pushing PR.

Scotland might want them quick, but I think it's unlikely to happen that quickly - tho not because of deliberate delaying tactics. There's more than just Scotland to be sorted out, and that's not going to be a quick and easy process no matter how much some might wish to make that that.

Personally, I think what's done quickly should be PR - yes, even if it risks UKIP doing well (I'm a democrat; i won't gerrymander things just because I won't like the consequences) - and the constitutional changes should all come after a parliament has been elected on that basis.

Otherwise, nothing of what we'll get will be what the people are wanting. The best chance of that is by the parliament better reflecting the public's views.

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Clegg can't do it... He is too damaged...

I disagree. The country knows he's an honest advocate of PR, no matter what his other faults. And the country knows it wants PR and that Clegg is their only realistic hope of getting it.

And, for him, it's possibly his path back to salvation in the public's eyes - not that i think he really deserves any 'reward'.

The point is he's got nothing to lose and everything to gain, and while Dave might try to ignore him it's unlikely that the country would.

The only hope is Milliband...

We are basically fucked at this point...

If it's Milliband that's our only hope, then yes we probably are. ;)

But give him a bit of time to do some fresh polling in Scotland (where so many have been saying the Labour Party in Scotland is dead and buried) and he might just have to change his mind if he ever wants to get his mits on power.

I think the better hope is Clegg, realistically.

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I just fear the YES side want "powers" now and won't want to wait for a better deal.. Making life hard for everyone but Cameron...

Yep, that's a worry.

But they're not in control of the process, and Dave isn't planning on passing any new powers to Scotland before the GE, he only plans to try and have each party's offer set in stone by then.

The whole thing will end up being the greatest own goal in Scottish history I fear...

That I agree with. A quick glance at Quebec looks ominous for Scotland - and that's a consequence via Scotland's own choosing.

Plus of course, Scotland is going to get what they wanted from indy - survival via their own income (or more-so than now, anyhow). Which means cuts just as indy would have done.

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So Ed is going to block the transfer of powers to Scotland as Cameron is planning to also stop Scottish MPs from voting on issues that only affect England at the same time... Now the people of Scotland feel despondent... The Yes voters are saying "I told you so" and the no voters are saying "oh shite".

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29287409

Sad developments :( Lets hope isn't a sign of things to come...

Wouldn't be surprise if the primary undertone is football.

Pathetic

At least not dangerous enough for hundreds of people to record videos that absolutely no one will watch on YouTube

Edited by Alcatraz
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PS: I read today about Salmond's 37 meetings with Murdoch. 37!!!!! There's no one in Westminster so far up Murdoch's arse!

Were you trying to find out what happened to all those Sun front page headlines supporting YES :P

Only realised today that it was only the Sunday Herald that supported the YES campaign not even the daily version. Will be interesting what the Record will say as it`s front page was used as the vehicle for the pledge or vow or whatever it was called. Should all of us not be condemning what looks to be happening here within 24 hours of the polls closing. Brown would surely ( hopefully ) not have agreed to say what he did without some sort of assurance. I think Scottish Labour are done anyway but this would be the final nail. Of course we already knew this would happen on here and we also know that Cameron has nothing to lose ( is it 1 seat ) but for Labour it would be pretty shameful if this doesn`t happen within the much talked about " timetable ".

Will be interesting if we see people coming out and saying they voted NO because of these " guarantees ". I think at that point we were seeing a steady stream of Labour voters moving to YES and this was all done to stop that becoming a flood.

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Cameron gave salmond everything he desired, and he still lost. Lost to a fucking tory who is leading a hated government. The weakest, most jelly spined, water brained prime minister in decades. And he lost by a considerable margin.

How do you think we feel bud ? Dave was a distant memory for us between 7am and 10pm. We werefree and we voted to come back. I don`t know whether to laugh or cry ! Plus you lost your bet.

It`s a SHITE state of affairs *

* Another Trainspotting reference.

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me neither, tho with hindsight that was very foolish. Someone who could get 44% of the votes for the SG was always likely to be able to get at least something similar in the indyref.

I will simply note that when I have ever quoted the 44% to demonstrate his success - you, without exception, reminded me of the turnout which was 50%

Last night yes got 45% on a turnout of 85%

so as a % of population that's an increase from 22% to about 39% - not too bad.

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